The Commercial Gift of Death to Joomla?

[MMMedia]

I think the ads should be in the bottom of the page, like a "last post"...  the users who come here are not interested in the ads...  if the ad is at the bottom of the page, the user read the post, and then, when he has read and he asks "where I can go now?", he sees the ads and he follows it...  I can't explain it very well because I don't speak English very well, but the ads in the bottom are more "logical" 

Explained very well.  I actually think this could be a good compromise regarding a less obtrusive approach. 

[Buster]

While I understand the need to generate  revenue for certain costs involved, it should be on the periphery of the forum where visitation is a choice not "up close and personal".

Michele, you underestimate your English, your post and point was well made, it reflects my first post, which was overlooked by some Mods!

[JoeJoomla]

I think that it is really desirable to advertise on a site like this where so many people will view your ad. Displaying ads in a less than prominent position will diminish ad effectiveness and therefore the advertiser will be less than happy with placing ads on the site and stop doing so.

During your journey through life advertising is everywhere. It is a fact of life since it generates money and money is a part of just about everything you have and do in life.

But advertising also has the potential to change your audience. Distasteful advertising will cause some to leave.

In venues where advertising is displayed, the owners of the venue make tough decisions to balance the negative and the positive of advertising in regards to the impact it has on their audience.

This is where advertising professionals who are associated with Joomla can offer real value to the community with their expertise. Are there advertising experts donating their time to this project?

[AmyStephen]

Good points and recommendations.

[spacemonkey]

Certainly the ads won't generate much revenue with the current monopoly advertiser!

Not true.  According to my statistics there have been 36,000 views and over 6000 clicks - 6000 clicks that Joomla will get paid for, and the advertiser will pay for. Thats just in one morning!

Cough up the dough, bro! hehe

[Vimes]

I don't see what all the fuss is about, to be honest. I normally surf the site with FF & adblock on so couldn't see anything, so finally fired it up in IE to have a look.

4 paltry ads? A couple of lines of text? You gotta be kidding me. We've all been around long enough to be able to filter out a few google ads without any thought whatsoever.

Now, I understand the feelings that folks have regarding open source, I feel the same. Whatalso needs to be understood is that a project like this costs money and when the donations aren't quite making ends (or projected ends) meet then revenue needs to be found elsewhere, and there are a hell of a lot worse ways than a handful of well blended links at the top of this page.

Hats off to Brad et al who have shown great patience on the subject.

[AmyStephen]

Hats off to Brad et al who have shown great patience on the subject.

Here, here.

[Andrew998]

Here, here.

Where, where?

[AmyStephen]

omaha, ne - u

[TomT]

My suggestion to make money would be to charge for Joomla reselling but on a voluntary license basis.  Before knuckles are cracked and broken typing death threats, let me explain! I will use myself as an example.

I take the Joomla core product, free templates, mods, comps, bots etc. maybe purchase a few great templates from JoomlArt or Jamboworks etc. and then make a nice little fee out of little more than facilitating a "joining up of the dots". 

What if I was "asked" to donate $5 or $10 for every 50 or 100 sites I set up using Joomla (the number is arbitrary)?  For most of us smaller hosters/developers etc. this would amount to $10 at the most and if we couldn't afford to "voluntarily" donate the money then we are doing something wrong. 

I support this suggestion. I'm making a living by designing and building Joomla based websites. I think it is completely normal that I make donation whenever a project is finished. There is a big variety in budgets for the projects I do, so there will also be a variety in donations.

It would be helpfull if the core-team gives us more information about the amount of money needed. Do we need money to fly members into Boston, no sweat, I'm happy to make an extra donation.

[brian]

The current budget can be found here http://www.joomla.org/content/view/1016/83/

[MMMedia]

May want to adjust that link Brian.. it goes to the University of Arizona for me. 

[Vimes]

Ditto

[TomT]

http://www.joomla.org/content/view/1016/83/

And where do we find information about how much is donated so far?

[brian]

Regular statements will be published, the exact frequency hasnt yet been decided but I suspect that it will be monthly

Brian

[rjs]

The google ads don't bother me at all. Advertisement is needed and I fully encourage marketing within the forums.

Good work.

[Kiwi]

I don't spend a lot of time in the forum so I am unsure where 3rd party commercial components etc are but maybe these could have their own section (not in the forum).  That way they would be consolidated and eay to find.

Also to me, most of the core team do not have a very high exposure. I would love to see them profiled on a regular basis so we got to know them better and what they were doing. If one of them is short of funds to go to a conference such as has been mentioned then I believe that this should be made known in the forum or on the front page and an appeal made specifically for it. We can only image the hard work put in by the core team and I am sure that we would respond to such an appeal as our way of saying thank you. If you can set up the appeal for the current situation (sorry but I have forgotten who it was for and will loose this post if I have to look for it) I will glady kick off the donations. 

[MMMedia]

Hello Kiwi,

There is a site with 3rd party components, commercial and open source - The Joomla Extension Directory : http://extensions.joomla.org

Also you can see what the core team has been up to at the Joomla's Developer's Network : http://dev.joomla.org

There is a donation flag set up in the top right corner of every Joomla.org  site and you can even use the flag on your own site.  More information on that can be found here:  http://www.joomla.org/content/view/689/79/  and here:  http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,46378.0.html

[TheSaint]

The ads have made me give a little extra in my donation. I'd really like to see them gone or perhaps put in a "last post" effort in each thread. I could use the adblock feature in firefox, but if it all possible it would nice to at least get them synced with products and services that joomla users would want. I'm not sure exactly how this ties in with Open Source/Joomla:

http://www.cramster.com/homework/?utm_s ... Relativity

(Just one of the sample ads)

Also, for those of you who have complained (like me), this is a good time to donate. Hint! Hint!

[kper]

I do think that introducing commercial advertising directly into the forums in this way is very problematic from a more fundamental point of view than 'just' aesthetics/useability.

In fact, the issues are actually more fundamental when the adverts are well-targeted to Joomla users' needs than when they are not.

You see, the forum rules state:

Any posts deemed to be self promotion, advertising, or spam can and will be removed. NO SPAM - NO ADVERTISING eg. Posting and making excessive, inappropriate and unnecessary references to your products and websites is self promotion.

By introducing well-targeted, prominent and intrusive adverts directly into the forums, you are saying that self-promotion is allowed after all for those who are willing and able to pay to circumvent the rules.

I appreciate that this brings revenue to the Joomla project in a way that simple self-promotion in forum posts does not. I also fully appreciate that that revenue is needed.

But that does not change the fact that there now exists a clear conflict with the forum rules, which are in place in order to allow us to shape the kind of community we want to build, upon an agreed set of principles and attitudes. This is a problem which should be addressed. It is important.

[brad]

I guess it is a little similar to have a commercial section of the forums that people can post in only if they pay a fee (this is what we used to do a few yrs ago).

If people pay to target the community, not only do they benefit, but the project does as well.

I can't see why/how the forum rules that have helped to grow the community for so long need to be changed, I do acknowledge your points though, about a seeming conflict, but any advertising will create a similar situation. I mean our extensions site was also critisized for allowing commercial products. We can't meet everyone needs, but we are doing our best and things are progressing.

[kper]

we are doing our best and things are progressing.

I know. I'm not criticising; but I am saying there is an issue to be addressed and thought carefully about, which should not be under-estimated, however abstract it may seem and whatever the pressing budgetary needs.

I have no problem, personally, with advertising being on Joomla sites if it directly benefits the project, and if it is clearly distinguished from endorsement (or, indeed, clearly identified as endorsement, if that is what it is). I don't see any problem with pointing out useful commercial add-ons on the extensions site either (in fact I think it an extremely helpful service provided all add-ons are given equal prominence).

But I think introducing closely-targeted advertising directly and prominently into the main public forums is problematic and the source of the conflict with the spirit of the forum rules.

Anyway; just a considered opinion to consider...

[alexhokamp]

@all

Reading this thread now for a while, I found negative and positive things about this whole issue. I have to disagree and agree with people’s opinions on this post, and there might be as many pros as cons in this matter. But this matter will not be solved in this forum. It will have to be solved with the checkbooks of people. If someone wants to pay for putting some ads here, I believe it will have to be welcomed, since obviously not enough funds can be raised through normal donations. Of course some will argue that until shortly Joomla! was not allowed to take monetary donations. Now Joomla! is. So where is the money?

Joomla! is an Open Source product and I believe a lot of people are generating substantial income through this product. This in itself is good, but when I look for example in the news section of the Joomla! Website and select Commercial Templates I will get 113 results meaning that there are people who are offering commercial products in the news section of the Joomla! Website. When I select the Open Source Templates in the same section, I will find only 60 results as of today. I honestly hope that Joomla! receives money from the 113 commercial templates offers presented in the news section. There are further other commercial offers in the same section, and reading the news section really lets someone believe that there is a lot of commercializing going on.

For me and the company a few friends and I formed in the end of last year, we will, in the moment a Joomla! 1.5 Stable is available start introducing Joomla! to our clients as an alternative. Some of our clients will switch to Joomla! and it will cost them money to do so. If we would not give back to this community so that it can grow once we start making money of it, we would be dead wrong.

Further I have to agree with AmyStephen. Where is my Joomla! Mug? Can someone please call George Lucas so he can tell whoever has the rights on Joomla! how to use merchandise to generate income. Generating Income does not always have to do with putting advertising on a website. The last time I looked, the Joomla! Forum had over 30000 members, from whom of course many are not really active, but there is a real big community out there which could help. I believe that the Brand Joomla! itself has a very big potential and as already mentioned before here, all the so called marketing professionals really should be able to do something with this Brand.

That brings me to another point I read with surprise. AmyStephen wrote that some of the core members were not able to go to the Linux World. That is in my opinion very embarrassing, especially since the dates for this shows are very well known and since there was enough time beforehand to raise funds for this events. Where were all the advertising and all the requests to donate money? Wouldn’t the Joomla! Website be a good place to put something like “WE NEED MONEY” right in front of everyone’s eyes. If I would have to handle that, I would have written, called, faxed, and messaged all the people putting all the commercial offers on the Joomla! site and asked them for money, because they obviously make money with the product Joomla! That of course should not let all the others out of the bind who also use Joomla! commercially or generate income with it.

In my opinion this is all about giving and taking. Joomla! has given a lot since it came into the market, now it is time to take back a little since obviously not many are willing to give. To all the people who complain about the advertising in this forum, I only can say, that if enough money would have been donated, advertising would not be necessary. Or maybe Joomla! should allow no advertising to please everyone, and when it runs out of money, just shut the site down until money is donated. Wow, that would be a treat to read “Sorry this Website is temporary unavailable because we ran out of money! Please call 1-800-JOOMLA to donate and save us!”

All fun beside. This actually is a serious matter, and I believe, that if the right heads get put together and work on this, there will be a solution. I found some good attempts here already and hope that maybe this whole thing here will lead to some constructive work being done.

Of course now everyone is free to tear my post apart and analyze it to death, it really does not bother me. For me, this matter is a serious issue, and I am intending to talk with people to find out what can be done, because something has to be done to support Joomla!

[Asphyx]

I don't know what the problem is...just install an ad blocker and the ads dissappear if you don't like them...

As for where the ads are placed well that is going to directly affect how much they will be willing to pay for adspace....

They will get as much as 50% less if they are placed at the bottom of pages because the advertisers know that many people won't get to that part of the page because many open the link see they are not interested in the content before it and move on without ever seeing the ad...
By placing it at the top they are ensured that they had to see the ad before they figured out they weren't interested in what is on the page...

Everything in this world has a price!
You can't have everything you want for free...
be thanklful it's just easily avoidable ads .... The alternative is to charge for access or worse for Joomla itself!
These sites don't cost nothing to operate!

At least here the money goes towards Joomla and not to some companies profit margin!

[Buster]

Alex

I think you are right that there are as many pros as cons to this issue and like you I take it very seriously.  The rather naive questions posted earlier as to whether there was anything to add to this topic have been answered by the amount of contribution and reading, which thanks to Nathan "letting it ride" in this section of the forum, had a free run and wasn't closed as some of the others have been.  I am not sure of some of the humerous tangents taken and some should know better but you asked where was all the requests for donations! I agree, rather than banner adverts, why wasn't a big in-your-face banner placed asking for donations? and I also agree about the 113 products/entities, although some will be regular contributors to the core product anyway so that might be opening a can of worms.

As I originally mentioned and you touched on, there are many sales and marketing professionals out there and I am one but we weren't asked!  The decisions were taken at probably core member level so we didn't know about anything until the ads appeared.  You are right again when you say there is a lot more money to be made from other methods and as a brand in a corporate sense, it is a million+ dollar product with a collective level of expertise that corporates would swap body organs for.  So the question comes back to why didn't the "directors" ask the "staff" for suggestions?

It was a golden opportunity to determine a comfortable level of funding in perpetuity, sadly not taken.

Buster

[AmyStephen]

Of course now everyone is free to tear my post apart and analyze it to death, it really does not bother me. For me, this matter is a serious issue, and I am intending to talk with people to find out what can be done, because something has to be done to support Joomla!

Go for it, Alex! If there is something more we can do, it's good to find out. Might be good to PM Brad for starters?

  So the question comes back to why didn't the "directors" ask the "staff" for suggestions? It was a golden opportunity to determine a comfortable level of funding in perpetuity, sadly not taken.

Buster -- this stuff takes time, too. I think it's been difficult to coordinate everything and still get v. 1.5 out, etc. We probably wanna give them a bit of a break!

I am glad to see you guys obviously interested in helping. I think talking to Brad is your first step.

Thanks for Joomla!

[JoeJoomla]

It was a golden opportunity to determine a comfortable level of funding in perpetuity, sadly not taken.

Well all is not lost in this regard. If advice is needed or wanted from advertising/marketing/promotional professionals in the business they can still ask.

Someone once told me that he only hired decision makers (he did hire me BTW) because they are people that make things happen. If they make a wrong decision, they eventually discover it, turn around, and go in the right direction. Those that can't or won't make decisions are basically frozen and never get things done.

So based on what I see going on at joomla.org I would say there are people here that are making things happen. We're all here to help. Count me in.

[AmyStephen]

Hey! If we have Alexhokamp, JoeJoomla, Buster, Asphyx behind us, maybe we can make enough $$$ to send Johan to San Francisco! I know he would really like to go and I do not believe the current budget calls for him to come from Europe.

So, we'd probably have to raise $2,000 more to get him there.

But, I would LLLLOOOOVVVVEEE to see us really do this.

I am serious...we need to try. What do you guys think?  We'd have to do it in a month's time, tops. 
Amy

[rjs]

I think people get carried away and forget the purpose of open source. That is what I think. Call me old fashioned if you will.

[AmyStephen]

RJS - huh? lol

Does that mean you will help out with the goal?