Suggestions: licencing, templates and other stuff

[compass]

I wonder how many newcomers even go to forums...

Thought.

(Forum Members) / (Number of Joomla Downloads from j.org)

That gives you a very rough idea how many people use the forum. Anyone know how to get the number of downloads of Joomla?

[AmyStephen]

I have wondered that, as well. But, are you saying that they go to the Extensions site, but not the forums? idk...Barrie - I don't even know if you can get anyone to create a new FAQ at this point, but, we certainly can't take developer time right now with v. 1.5 nearing beta. You must agree with that? I mean, just from a practical sense?

Honestly, I get your point -- it is only the timing that is not good < IMO. >

Do you think a link from the Extensions to a list of providers would help? < Not that I can do that or that I should even be offering it - but I think there is a better chance of getting that at this point than larger changes. >

[MMMedia]

There is a listing of commercial and free templates at the news site.

Commercial - http://www.joomla.org/content/blogcategory/30/56/
Freee - http://www.joomla.org/content/blogcategory/19/51/

At the top of the Templates forum there is this post http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,68962.0.html

I am sure that most people that download Joomla! at one point or another take a look at the forums at some point.  I don't think judging how many downloads is a good indication of users that visit the forums.  The same person may be downloading multiple times, some people may download but never use it, or download it an lose where they saved it to.  I don't think you could get any sort of reliable statistical data to compare downloads to forum use.

[AmyStephen]

I had forgotten the news site. That is a good point. Your post on top of the Templates forum is good, too. Thanks for sharing those things. Our information is a bit scattered with web service providers in one place, and templates in several places, I think that is Barrie's point. And, he is not wrong.

I do believe it would be nice additon, tho, to have a listing of template providers, too. The news are super for new templates but difficult to use to find "providers" IMO. The Free FAQ listing is great -- and in many cases, that can get you to the commercial provider, as well.

But, maintaining a list of commercial template providers in the FAQ, and linking to it from the extensions site, should not be too difficult to do, and hopefully be a good and friendly and cooperative move. Don't you think?

++++

Stats are hard to get in any reliable form, I think. Such a challenge. What does a download mean, anyway? I think that is why many third party folks add the "phone home" features - to get a better handle on usage. < But, I think all of that is OT, anyway. >

[brian]

Anyone know how to get the number of downloads of Joomla?

The forge doesnt provide a reliable way of doing this other than amnualy adding the number of downloads for each month ;(

(Its not a reliable guide of anything anyway imho)

It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that there is a need for a central database of J teemplates that allow peer review (like the extensins site) as the number of problems I am seeing reported on the forums that turn out to be not Joomla related but down to some bad css or html in a template.

[MMMedia]

I think the reason why it is in the news.joomla.org section of the sites is that it makes it the responsibility of the creator of the templates to get the news out, and not the responsibility of Joomla! resources to keep it updated.  You have to take into consideration the sheer volume of templates, and template makers both commercial and free.  It would be a serious undertaking in time and energy on a continual basis to maintain a template resource site.

With it being in the news, template creators can submit to their hearts content, and with people now being directed to that resource and the word being spread it shouldn't take long to catch on. (help spread the word!   )

I really think that having it on the news site was the best in terms of being fair to both commercial and free template providers, it allows template users to get a visual of the templates in question, isn't too hard on the Joomla! Team resources to maintain other than to approve the news item, and generally is a good compromise all round.

[MMMedia]

It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that there is a need for a central database of J teemplates that allow peer review (like the extensins site) as the number of problems I am seeing reported on the forums that turn out to be not Joomla related but down to some bad css or html in a template.

A peer review site isn't going to stop the bad css or html as it certainly doesn't stop bad coding in items on the extension site.

[brian]

Well a bad review certainly stops me from considering an extension

[AmyStephen]

My last post on this topic:

1) Nothing major should be proposed until v. 1.5 is on the streets. I do hope that everyone agrees with that. I also think even debates and discussions on something bigger should wait. IMO. Does that make sense to everyone?

2) There is a news resource that MMM has pointed out and she is correct -- that is excellent and in place and works.

3) Having said that, it should not be a huge hardship to add a listing of commercial providers to the FAQ and to link to it from the Extensions site if people like Barrie think it would be helpful at least as a short term, work-around.

Please, let's not dig our heels in on this. I have a nagging feeling that this discussion is going to drop back into traditional roles of "attack and defend" and that approach has gotten us nowhere in the past and it will get us nowhere in the future. I hope that my comment does not tick anyone off. It is merely my observation of what has happened in the past. And, as I type, the games begin! These discussions get the attention of the developers and are discouraging to them. Please. Let us quit.

Barrie is asking a legitimate question. He has been a long serving member of the documentation team and a constant help on the forums. I agree that he has a point, I just think the timing of a substantial decision must wait. But, if he agrees, an interim, easy solution could be to simply add an FAQ item listing commercial template providers with a link from the extensions site < on a Template category >. Barrie - what do you think of that approach until v 1.5 is out?

++++

OK, I am done on this topic. I hope it doesn't go on for pages. I hope we will all walk away. 

[brian]

Why does this have to wait for 1.5 to be released. We are talking about teplates for 1.0x sites and we are not talking about any of the people developing code for 1.5 beinf involved in creating this. (none of them were centraly inolved in creating the extensions site)

[AmyStephen]

Brian -

I am going to answer you once, even though I really shouldn't even do that. I am answering you, though, out of respect.

We should wait for v. 1.5 to be released because, we (the majority of us) thought it was a good idea on the Skype meeting that Mitch was so very kind to hold with us to give them some space until v 1.5 was out. I want to do my best to help. And, right now, the best thing that we can do to help is to back off with all the good ideas for awhile and give the core time to focus exclusively on v. 1.5 < and keeping the place running.>

I know we don't necessarily agree on approaches, Brian, but we definitely both agree on wanting the best for Joomla! I am afraid I should not have provided this response online because I don't want to debate it. And, Brian, I will not debate it anymore here. I give this last response to you in hopes that you are really asking my opinion and you are really wanting to understand.

But, all other information you want from me on this will be answered at great depth and repeatedly for you and as quickly as I can type -- but, it will only be provided offline.

Thanks for understanding. Amy

[MMMedia]

I don't think it is a matter of 1.5 being released or not.  It is a huge undertaking, that at this point most likely isn't a priority, and there are systems in place that at this time deal with the situation in a relatively good way that gets the job done. It may not be getting the job done as some would like to see it done, but that is the case with everything is it not? 


Edit:  There really is no need to add another FAQ.  People can get the information they need from the news.joomla.org site.  I will suggest an edit to the existing FAQ to link to the news.joomla.org sections that deal with templates.

That should satisfy everyone at least temporarily.

[rjs]

Maybe instead of being bent on having another release out before working on the new ideas, or fixing issues found, someone could take the reigns and make it happen. I do like the idea of the template rating(s).

[MMMedia]

Anyone is free to create their own site with Joomla templates and ratings.  In fact I think there are a few out there already so someone has taken up those reins.

[Asphyx]

Brian.... feel free to make a template review site!

There are already plenty of sites out there that do that and they support much more than just J! templates that can easily be converted to J! with a little editing!

MamboHut does a pretty bang up job at this already. there are many others around!
I just don't see why the folks here need to spread even more resources out to cover templates. Extentions I understand because they provide function right out of the box!

But templates even the ones you can download all require some editing before use...

And most of the problems that people have with templates is because they don't know how to make those changes not because the template has bad CSS or is written badly!

[compass]

*puts on flame proof undies*

It is a huge undertaking

Isn't it just a question of deciding to accept template providers and then adding the category? I thought the whole point of that component was that there was little work required from admins.....

Can't this be done in about 5 minutes? (Based on previous suggestions on one entry per vendor, not template)

[MMMedia]

The point is.. there is no need to do it because the information is already availible.

There is a listing of commercial and free templates at the news site.

Commercial - http://www.joomla.org/content/blogcategory/30/56/
Freee - http://www.joomla.org/content/blogcategory/19/51/

[compass]

Well, not to flog this horse any deader than it is

# Submit your News
# General News & Events
# Joomla! Powered Sites
# Community Sites
# Free Addons
# Free Templates
# Commercial Addons
# Commercial Templates
# Commercial Offers

I don't really think a link in that list is comparable to a whole site devoted to add ons/extensions, even if it was, the add-ons have that too.

[MMMedia]

 

You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes,
You just might find,
You get what you need....

[brian]

MMMedia I could just as easily say that f you dont ask you dont get.

I actualy find your suggestion that this isnt necessary as you can already get template info at the news site as a bit .... as the same could be said about extensions.

To the person who said template sites already exist the same could have been said about extensions

To the person who said why dont I create a template site - who said I wont but my point is that I, and others, would like to see a templates site here at joomla.org. As I have said previously I would be only too happy to work on creating one but I am not going to start to create one if there is no commitment from the core team to allow it to exist.

All this debate could have been resolved in 2 minutes by a member of the core team saying "fine if you want to create a template site here go ahead and do it". IIRC tht is exactlyy what happened with the extensions site. The only difference here is that 9it is NOT a member of the core team asking for the site but a member of the communty

[AmyStephen]

Isn't it just a question of deciding to accept template providers and then adding the category? I thought the whole point of that component was that there was little work required from admins.....

Can't this be done in about 5 minutes? (Based on previous suggestions on one entry per vendor, not template)

Barrie -

Is it true that all you are asking for is to have a category of "Templates" added to the existing Extensions environment? After which time, Template Providers, such as yourself, can fill in the existing data elements to define all of your product offerings at once (not one template at a time)?

I assume you reviewed this concept in light of the data elements currently collected < http://extensions.joomla.org/content/view/15/63/1/0/ >? And, you have found that those data elements will work for you, without change?

Related to the ratings and feedback, are you agreeing that it is acceptable to have the community feedback collected for the template provider, rather than on a template-by-template basis?

Also, Barrie, do you believe other template providers will concur with this approach? Or, will it end up turning into something bigger?

If it's going to get bigger, do you agree it should wait < please > until v. 1.5 is out?

But, if you are saying it should work for the group of you as is, then, I assume that Graham, and company, are the ones to answer this for you? And, if template providers are not allowed due to a previous decision, then, I assume Graham would probably be the one to elevate the question to core? Or, at least, he could tell you what your next step should be.

Regardless, our debating this back and forth amongst ourselves is not productive -- since none of us can say "yes" or "no."

Amy

[compass]

Pretty much, I know people are super busy so I see this as a 3-6 month stop-gap.

Obviously, I can't really speak for other template providors.

[AmyStephen]

Then, for pete sake, this is not such a big deal.

PM Graham and see what he says -- it will probably take a bit of time for him to make certain all the right people get to weigh in on your suggestion. But, I cannot even imagine that this approach would be difficult and there would be great benefit, as you said, to have that central listing of template providers just like we do all other extensions to Joomla!.

Barrie - my apologies for assuming it was more and getting in your way. Good idea. Good luck! Amy

[compass]

[ot2sen]

Thanks for all the valuable input in this thread. Just for the record, we do read this and all the other great ideas brought up in this dedicated extensions forum.

A solution for showing templates sure will find its way at some point. Whether this will be in an hour or in some months only time can tell 

....back to the busy editorial office 
ot2sen / E-Team aka extremely busy clerks aka Editorial Team - Joomla! Extensions Directory

[brad]

I assume Graham would probably be the one to elevate the question to core? Or, at least, he could tell you what your next step should be.

The extension team is made up of: gsbe, dknight, ot2sen and as can be seen from the above post, they are aware of this suggestion. However I will say, that templates being part of the extensions site is something that has been considered from day 1. Your voices have been heard.

Template providers. What will be next, Joomla developers? Commercial services? Probably. So you can see why having a template section has long range implications. Will there be one in the future? Probably. Will there be a commercial/open source directory of Joomla developers? Probably. When? Sometime. Templates are not extensions (please don't debate this now, the extensions site is earmarked for something very exciting in the future.) and neither would listing Joomla! 3PD on extensions site fit. It's obvious another 'directory' will be needed.

[AmyStephen]

I apologize for not listing the other two individuals. I did not mean anything about that, honestly.

And, you raise good points on the developer and commercial services listings.

But, I do not believe that what Barrie is asking for now is the same thing that has been asked for earlier. He is not suggesting listing each template, or any templates for that matter. I understand he simply wants to use the extensions listing for a "roster" of providers. I think his request is very different and does not sound too difficult to implement. < And, it might dovetail nicely with your point about the developer and commercial services areas not being well represented, as well. >

But, Brad, I think a bigger question is how can community members ask for something in a positive and appropriate manner?

In this case, was this forum the proper place for Barrie to ask? Was it appropriate that he ask this group: gsbe, dknight, ot2sen, and that they would respond here? Or, does a member of the core need to be asked? And, if so, how do we do that? Also, just for clarification purposes, was your answer a "no, not now?" Especially, since you are on the core.

I am not trying to be difficult. I am asking about process so that we are not so difficult in the future. It seems like when someone asks for something, others rise up and try to wrestle people down. I think we are all in the way < note: present company included - apologized in post #52 >.

And, Brad, I think that all this means is we are all a little confused about process.

Thanks, Brad, for your advice. It is much appreciated. You work very hard for us and we do not thank you enough.

[brian]

For once AMy I find myself in agreement

[brad]

There is no confusion, this thread is posted in the correct place, the editors have seen it, believe me. There is no need to PM anyone.

The answer is YES, but not now.

[AmyStephen]

Thanks, Brad. Sincerely.

Amy