Sandbox

Phil, pm me about any of the reviews that you have issues with, or better still report them via report review feature on the xtn server, and I'll take a look.

although *some* checking of the facts should be made by moderator/editors

Have you any idea how long this would take? If we were to check every negative review we'd need a dozen editors, test servers on all the major OS's, licenses for all the commercial products and pretty much every flavour of template that can be found for Joomla. At this moment in time the best that we can do is ask developers to either post replies to a given review or report them.

This thread has been left open so that robbo1 can paste his review in any time he wishes. Users can then judge for themselves whether or not we've been un-neccessarily harsh in rejecting his review, and perhaps trigger a debate on exactly what a review should or should not constitute. Personally I feel that a review should be just that, a review of a given extension, not a commentary about how a developer should do this or that or the other with their business model/forum/website/granny's aunt.

Pretty sad though that someone in business has to apologise for merely doing his job - and, by all accounts, doing it real well!!

I still can't understand why my post about mosets tree couldn't be published (my comments were neither irresponsible nor inapproriate) and yet why many disparaging comments and (quite likely as I have come to discover) inaccurate comments about Phil Taylor's components could be published.

Is there some difference that exists? Perhaps a little bit of code will help everyone figure out what's going on:

if negative comments about Phil Taylor's components - publish
elseif negative comments about Mosets Tree - do not publish

What's going on Vimes - I think we've all had enough? Please let us know!!!!

robbo the ball is in your court. as vimes has said publish here and let others judge if your review is a review. or does it match all/some of the things phil has complained about.

phil; is this still going on. that's why the extension team added the ability for extension authors to respond.

speaking from my own experience they have always responded quickly to any "issue " I have had with reviews, descriptions  etc.

the biggest problem with extensions imho
is that authors don't  provide enough information about their products functions and features and that users don't read the products functions and features

Honestly - how many people save a copy of a review before hitting the submit button?  I certainly did NOT save a copy of my original comments. 

But clearly others, as has been indicated by Joomla moderators, have read my comments recently. After all, that's how they've seen fit to pass judgement upon my comments:

Firstly... I'm not an editor of the Extensions site however I do have access to it and so I went to see what you had to say in your reviews. I could only see one, however having seen it I can say that I stand by the editors descision not to publish it.

I would suggest that you read the rules of the extensions site http://extensions.joomla.org/content/view/12/36/ and if you decide to re-submit a review you do so following these rules.  They provide all the room you should need for review that is objective(good or bad) and will provide the Joomla! community with an insight into your usage of a given extension(again good or bad).

Its not the place to air gripes nor wage war on developers (commercial or OS) through comments that go beyond the extenion being reviewed.

Cheers
Shayne

So, the ball is clearly in your court joomla moderators. I have repeatedly asked for my original comments to be posted. I am happy for them to be posted here (and anywhere else for that matter) to let others judge / learn from my views. If I am as wrong as you indicate, then you needn't fear anything. Clearly, you have the capacity to access these comments from your database, and as indicated I am more than happy for you to publish these comments.

Bring it on!

Robbo1 -

Just got online for the first time this morning and I find 15 responses to this thread that I thought was resolved. I thought we had an agreement?  I thought you were going to patiently wait until the editor who had not had a chance to review your feedback or had rejected your feedback had the opportunity to respond.

You really let me down, here. And, to be honest, *you* just blew your credibility with the out of control, hostile, offensive things you have had to say. You turned this into a fight because you wouldn't be patient and give these people who work free of charge for hours and hours and hours the time they needed to respond. I realize you are frustrated but honestly!

Please - Get your emotions in check. Fill out a piece of feedback. Let them do their job. Let's get this done! Quit responding to the comments that make you mad. Focus. Please.

Open source. 
Amy

robbo1 wrote:So, the ball is clearly in your court joomla moderators. I have repeatedly asked for my original comments to be posted. I am happy for them to be posted here (and anywhere else for that matter) to let others judge / learn from my views. If I am as wrong as you indicate, then you needn't fear anything. Clearly, you have the capacity to access these comments from your database, and as indicated I am more than happy for you to publish these comments.

Bring it on!

Hi robbo1,

You requested your review to be posted here. Found the last submitted on 2006-12-27:

Title: Not impressed!!!

Personally, I have found this software to be extremely disappointing. For a start, it is really buggy! It is some of the most poorly coded software I have had the misfortune of seeing! I honestly wish I hadn't wasted my time with it!!!!! And I don't say that lightly.

Forum questions are not answered by the developers. People wait for ages to have their questions responded to, and even then, receive only very vague responses (generally from idiots that have just opened a copy of sam's learn php in 24 hours book) - if at all.

My advice is to think very carefully before buying this software. It lacks many features of the freely available scripts. I have since moved to SOBI2. I have found this to be less buggy, more cleanly coded, and exhibiting significantly more potential.

My Mosets experience has not been a good one!!!!! When I informed them of this fact, they didn't seem to care - after all I was just another idiot that had forked out $100 to them.

I can't honestly recommend this script.... Be warned!

Was this feedback accepted? And, if it was not, could you please provide feedback how it does not meet our guidelines?

Thanks!
Amy

gives no indication of what the bugs are.  [eg are they bugs that means the extension doesn't work as described,]

as for lacking features. were they atures that the developer said it had. if so what were they. if not then its not a review of the extension but a comment on the posters ability to understand what the stated features of an extension are.

at the end of the day a review, positive or negative, should be written for the benefit of others. eg does it do what it says on the tin, is it as easy/hard to use as described, etc

I mean no disrespect, Brian, but I am interested in response from the editors. I don't even know if this was accepted. I assume it was. ?

I just wrote in hopefully plain english my understand ing of the guidelines  for writing a review which I paste below. imho the 'review' does not meet those guidelines.



What's in a review?
You are evaluating the extension based on your experience and usage. Share your thoughts about the extension, the pros and cons. If this is a good extension, why? What is the killer feature? If this is a bad extension, what are the shortcomings and if possible offer suggestions for improvement. Only reviews that meet these guidelines will be published.

I wouldn't think it should be accepted.  It isn't a review.  It is a rant.  Why do they think it is coded badly?  What bugs did they encounter?

If we delve a little deeper into his rant on developer's responses or lack thereof take a look at how he conducts himself on the dev's forums: http://forum.mosets.com/showthread.php? ... #post15568

I wouldn't respond to him there either.  In fact I would remove his posts and ban him from the forums regardless of whether they are a paying customer or not.  That sort of thing is uncalled for and just plain wrong.

That wasn't a review, it was a continued rant or crusade against mosets.

if I had read those homophobic comments I wouldn't even have bothered to try and listen.

Here's the danger I get concerned about when I hear of the "editorial process." We don't protect the editors and we do not protect Joomla! because the process is not transparent and the criteria is subjective.

Regardless of how stupid or silly or off-topic we might feel community comments are, representatives of Joomla! must be "hands off." There are mechanisms for the developer to respond directly to any comment submitted; let them take care of their customer base. Part of making it in a commercial environment is managing expectations. It is their job, not ours.

Open source is essentially restructuring technology market. Commercial aspects of this market are subject to US laws because the servers sit on US soil. We must be very careful that we do nothing that appears like market collusion < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion > or gives an appearance of violating anti-trust laws < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust >.

We are going to have to trust our community. I'll be honest. I'd look at this particular comment and when I saw the flaming emotion, I would discount this opinion greatly. But, it is my right as a consumer to have complete confidence that all resources have been made available to me to allow for my own filters to be used in the decision-making process.

Jenny makes the case for access to information. Look how she was able to use information to draw her own conclusion. And, Brian has made his own conclusion having information available. Let's make that available to everyone.

We have to build in transparency to this process. You guys are really doing amazing work; without the extensions directory, Joomla! would be a hobbyist toy. Now, let's make the adjustments needed to get completely out of the way of this market and watch it explode. I have complete confidence in you guys and in Joomla! and in our third party developers, but mostly I believe in our community and our ability to use information to lift up what is good and right and appropriate.

Final word on the review as submitted to the extension directory, bearing in mind the rule:

A review is a serious examination of a person's experience with an extension which is presented on the Joomla! Extensions Directory. Praise, difficulties, or comparisons with other extensions are all valid parts of a review, including the reasons why.

This was not a review of the mosets Tree component. There is no discussion regarding the merits or otherwise of the software beyond

"For a start, it is really buggy! It is some of the most poorly coded software I have had the misfortune of seeing!"

and

It lacks many features of the freely available scripts. I have since moved to SOBI2. I have found this to be less buggy, more cleanly coded, and exhibiting significantly more potential

and in fact these are the only statements in the whole submission that comes close to being considered as possibly a review. The rest of it is a diatribe against Mosets themselves.

Had I or one of the other editors chosen to approve the review then the developers at Mosets would have been well within their rights to call into play this rule:

There is a possibility that a review contains a statement which is inaccurate. ... or if the statement isn't valid for another reason. We hold the right to withdraw a written review after it has been put online.

As the editors use Mosets Tree on a regular basis we are in a unique position in that we are directly exposed to the software in question and would be forced to agree that the assertion "For a start, it is really buggy!" is untrue, and the review would have been pulled again.

Let's summarise all this data now:

• The review wasn't a review.
• The review was inaccurate in my opinion as an experienced user of Mosets Tree
• The only comment that remains that could possibly be included is "It lacks many features of the freely available scripts". Having not played with any of the other directory applications I am not qualified to judge.

Granted, as editors we reserve the right to edit reviews before posting them, but generally we try to only do this when we're only modifying a small part of a review (for example, removing self promoting links to a reviewer's own site). robbo1, if you want me to edit your review and post just this part of it, please let me know, however your initial review has been judged to be largely an attack on the developers at Mosets.

The extension server is not here to act as a way for one person or group to maintain a public disagreement with another person or group. If robbo1 has an issue with the developers at Mosets then he is free to air those views (and he has) at the Mosets forums, on his own website or anywhere that interested parties may listen, but the extension directory is not the place for this. If he has a valid, balanced review that airs pros and cons of the software then we'll be happy to approve it, but not what he as submitted to date. If members of the community disagree with the decision process then they should lobbly the Joomla Community as a whole to modify the rules regarding submissions to the JED, but until then this will remain the decision of the editors.



On a site note, Amy, I take great offence at your insinuation of collusion regarding the editors of JED. It may or may not have occured to you that Mosets have a product which is in direct competition with my own. It would make good business sense if I were to favour negative reviews of their products, but I don't do that because that's not what Joomla Extension Directory editors are about. Conversely, none of Phil Taylors products clash with my own and I have no personal bones to pick with him. I have only spoken briefly to him but I've seen and heard a lot of good stuff about his software and I believe him to be an excellent addition to the Joomla Community. Why on earth wouldn't we want his products to be praised?

Hell of a way to stay firmly rooted on my ignore-list, Amy.


This thread will be closed now as the review in question has been pasted here, along with our reasons for not approving it. If you wish to discuss matters further please create a new thread.