Sandbox

OK fine by me if you do it, one less thing for me to do right now.

Hey, I've got 7.45 invested, this better go  >:( >:(

So kidding, but Brian you are right.  Need to have a plan.  I just hate the race for domain names when someone comes up with a good idea.  So at least we've got 'em locked and loaded.  Alledia has offered free hosting and I don't mind turing the domain over to the org.  Just need to wait that 60 days is all.

So let's let her rip.  Oh I feel  a song coming on....
ahem ...

Just One Voice,
Singing in the darkness,
All it takes is One Voice,
Singing so they hear what's on your mind,
And when you look around you'll find
There's more than one voice.

You are doing a lot already, Brian!    We're good!

Nice voice, Cindy!

Well you now where I am and you know I am always here to help, support, advice, guide, intefere, meddle etc

Hey I don't know who all the players are for Joomla.org, but don't we need permission to use the logo on the new site or are we going to do this under the umbrella of Joomla?

Nope as long as you follow the logo usage guidelines:
http://www.joomla.org/content/view/259/70/

Permission is granted to use the logo, subject to the above guidelines on any web site or open source product.

AmyStephen wrote:In part of the reading, there is discussion of getting legal not for profit standing. That is going to be a big challenge for many - and overkill for small groups. Does it make sense to either have a "central" not for profit group and local accounts? And, should that be separate from or part of joomla.org? I am only asking for people to think on this as they read. This will be a big discussion point, so, start considering this yourself in preparation for discussion.

The problem with centralisation is overt political control, usually leading to a marketing mentality of takeover/occupation. Which then harms local initiatives.  We already have a centralised NFP (OSM) doing the management of J! "resources" as such, and the better option is localisation. The people who manage the UG have a better interest in maintaining credibility and visibility locally than some foreign import (i.e. the effect of Nike and the way it deploys sweatshops throughout the Third World). Local UGs require local resources, local suppliers and local accounts and they understand the local needs. The financials just become too involving otherwise (multiple tax system compliance in regards to NFP work around the globe does become a pain unless you're a big fat overbearing corporate multinational).

absalom wrote:The problem with centralisation is overt political control, usually leading to a marketing mentality of takeover/occupation.

One of my favorite sayings is "Power to the People!" which is a big part of what I love about open source - it empowers people.  So, I'd sure stand against any structure where I thought there might be an "takeover/occupation." Eeek!

Establishing a not-for-profit status is a) expensive; and, b) difficult; and c) likely necessary; if there are funds coming in. I am suggesting we think about that and consider possible options for the point in time we discuss that topic.

Maybe it would be overseen by the local leadership as a group? Who knows. I invite you to consider how that should be structured. But, I'd prefer we hold discussion until everyone has considered it and the group is ready to address.

+++

Cindy - don't know about the "umbrella" of Joomla! - we will need to discuss that. Rafa's got you covered on the Logo issues.

AmyStephen wrote:One of my favorite sayings is "Power to the People!" which is a big part of what I love about open source - it empowers people.  So, I'd sure stand against any structure where I thought there might be an "takeover/occupation." Eeek!

Centralisation of resources and control will do that. Mutual affiliation and the ability to negotiate on a case by case basis (of course, including some manner of Base Agreement between both parties) would be a better route.. yet there seems no negotiation by OSM thus far. Quoting the policies endlessly solves nothing.. as the policies I've had to work with develop and change over time as needs arise and people change the way they work. Once a policy is written, it's never set in stone. A policy is there to help people, not to be followed to the letter without question ("we were only following orders" mentality). If a policy is wrong, or can no longer do its job effectively, it needs to be changed.

AmyStephen wrote:Establishing a not-for-profit status is a) expensive; and, b) difficult; and c) likely necessary; if there are funds coming in. I am suggesting we think about that and consider possible options for the point in time we discuss that topic.

Agreed. That's part of the reason I'm holding it off for JMUG.

I hear you, Lawrence. You are too young, but Springsteen's my man.

Poor man wanna be rich,
rich man wanna be king
And a king ain't satisfied
till he rules everything

Now, maybe together, through this process, we'll find the way. I'm confident we will. Thanks for joining us.

AmyStephen wrote:I hear you, Lawrence. You are too young, but Springsteen's my man.

Poor man wanna be rich,
rich man wanna be king
And a king ain't satisfied
till he rules everything

Now, maybe together, through this process, we'll find the way. I'm confident we will. Thanks for joining us.

Perhaps we need a third thread - "OSM membership status"? (see comments elsewhere in previous thread)

I will do so. Let's include it in this discussion. I see it as a possible option. I'd like to explore.

Alrighty, I'm gonna weigh in here.  I realize that most of you never heard of me, but I've been around since day 2 I think.  I try to help people (read: newbies)  with design issues and basic questions.  I am not a programmer by any stretch and only learned what little php I know to modify my sites a smidge.  Okay, so ya'll know where I am coming from.  What you may not know is I'm pretty damned good at starting "clubs."  Isn't that what we're talking about doing here, or have I misunderstood?

I'm all in favor of starting a local group of people who want to talk about Joomla and how it benefits their business.  Of course any one of us could pop up a website and call it a UG. Done and done.  But-- to give the project credibility, I believe we need to be centralized--ideally under the Joomla umbrella.  I believe we should have some sort of code of ethics and policies and procedures in place at the outset.  With as many brilliant minds as there are on this forum, we should be able to hash out all of that...sans personal agendas or egos.

Joomla has been a boon to my business.  It's really the only product I push anymore because it's such a benefit to my clients.  They get so much more from me because I offer Joomla than they can get from another agency and in turn they recommend me to their friends.  When the word gets out, I'll still be the go-to-girl in my area.  Win-win.

Regards,
Montano

montano wrote:Alrighty, I'm gonna weigh in here.  I realize that most of you never heard of me, but I've been around since day 2 I think.  I try to help people (read: newbies)  with design issues and basic questions.  I am not a programmer by any stretch and only learned what little php I know to modify my sites a smidge.  Okay, so ya'll know where I am coming from.  What you may not know is I'm pretty damned good at starting "clubs."  Isn't that what we're talking about doing here, or have I misunderstood?

More than just clubs.. They are essentially local support J! infrastructure instead of a global J! infrastructure, and once you're getting into supporting a local community on a local level, that needs cashflow and self-sufficiency for that project at a local level (see LUG references for this).

montano wrote:I'm all in favor of starting a local group of people who want to talk about Joomla and how it benefits their business.  Of course any one of us could pop up a website and call it a UG. Done and done.  But-- to give the project credibility, I believe we need to be centralized--ideally under the Joomla umbrella.  I believe we should have some sort of code of ethics and policies and procedures in place at the outset.  With as many brilliant minds as there are on this forum, we should be able to hash out all of that...sans personal agendas or egos.

The only way I could possibly forsee UGs could fit under the J! umbrella is if UGs were part of the OSM membership (in the same way Johan/jinx and Shayne/manuman are). Otherwise, there is no relationship between the validity of a group and the benefits it gets of being part of the "central" body. And of course, the benefits have to flow both ways.. This requires, imho:

OSM to:

• Open its membership doors
• Define, draft and publish policies on ethics and "accreditation" of UGs, with some acknowledgement that it's a relationship between both parties. The last thing you want is a UG that can't think or speak independently of what the central body requires - Microsoft was paid out for this just two weeks ago for bribing people with laptops in order to spread Vista round the blogs with an NDA that people couldn't say negative stuff about it.

The UGs to:

• Correctly and ethically promote the J! project - which is where my ideas of a profit split for potential JMUG merch to help finance the J! project itself come from.
• Spread the word locally. That usually means networking with local suppliers for J! related material.
• Remain self-sufficient and independent in terms of funding from OSM. If all OSM is doing is providing financial assistance to every UG that springs up, that's really going to hit the bank balance in a bad way.

I dont agree with your conclusions at all Lawrence. I think we have a completely different idea about what a User Group is.

brian wrote:I dont agree with your conclusions at all Lawrence. I think we have a completely different idea about what a User Group is.

It's okay to have a completely different idea. Shayne has said that's okay in terms of how OSM treats the UGs. I'm okay with it too. The question is - where do we go from here in a way that benefits all parties involved ?

Start by following the rules Lawrence. You cant have a shop. Accept it.

Lawrence - keep it light, please, so we don't concern others who might want to join in. I do think that was Cindy's point. 

Hi, nice thread over here. Well I'm looking forward to created my own JUGs (I mean a real community for my country). Now..
What I'm concern is that, some of the people who wanted to open their own JUGs with a personal motive/agenda/interest
to generate income for themselves/certain company, and this is the part when I think that it shouldn't.

I ve been using joomla from the beginning, started from mambo as the official translator for Malay language, and I believe JUGs should not have any personal motives/interest as it is should be open to anyone as Joomla does. Only opensource matters and no commercial interests (i mean the JUGs) if it is for Commercial why don't they just make a Group of commercial Joomla Groups and should be seperated from the non profit Joomla community or JUGs.

I do believe, by setting up Non profit JUGs, We can help a lot of people and spread the uniqueness of Joomla. BUT by having a personal motives or agenda/interest for own personal benefits this will indeed make that groups unpopular. We should create JUGs for the sake of the community and open (like opensource), if you are generating profits to support local communities it should be ok, but if it doesnt? Wheres the money go? your own pocket?. And if that should or will happen.. the JUGs for Non profit and Commercial should be differentiate.

Thats what I'm thinking now.. Just my 2 cent!

brian wrote:Start by following the rules Lawrence. You cant have a shop. Accept it.

I can't also have any merchantable material, such as a T-shirt for the MUG "core" whenever that happens (i.e. so people know they're dealing with JMUG people). Anything that involves some manner of duplication, as per a T-shirt also involves some appreciable loss of income.. and quite frankly, I don't want JMUG or any other UG bleeding the main OSM funds pool dry in this respect.

It also explains why the decision was made to pitch an Official Store. OSM would, forseeably, get all the profits from the needs that any UG had (which is a tad unfair, imho, towards UGs from where I stand. The UGs need to be self-sufficient in their own right and you don't do that by supplying the needs of a UG without any benefit helping that UG's existence).

Now there is a low yield (i.e. minimal duplication) service available for T-shirts available that I have access to (which is different from my contacts at Redbubble). Does OSM allow UGs to print t-shirts for UG "official" use only ? (According to the reading of the fine print of the Brand Manual thus far, probably not).

Regarding the personal/motive/agenda interest dilemma, I agree 100% with what shaifful just wrote. It is pretty much the same ideas I had for JMUG and its creation..

Shaifful -

Yours is a beautiful attitude and I am so pleased to have you join us. I need to post a notice in the Translators Thread to invite others from the non-English speaking communities to also join us. Please help us spread the word.

I am starting to believe that there are as many reasons for being involved with Joomla! as we have community members.

I, personally, do not make a living from Joomla! although it is one of many tools I use at work. I try to help with the Joomla! community because I believe open source and Joomla! have an enormously positive impact on the world. This week's edition of Brian's Joomla! Weekly News, is in part about Hunger and he highlights several humanitarian efforts worldwide, all powered by Joomla! websites. < http://forge.joomla.org/sf/go/projects. ... eekly_news >

A practical and equally important impact Joomla! is having is simply helping people earn a living. Commercial and not for profit efforts can make the best partners. One such example is JoomlaShack who recently awarded $1,000 US to Casa do Caminho Orphanages in Rio de Janeiro and Bart Bijen, the director of the orphanage, indicated the money would be used to build a computer lab and "the long-term effect is that they will have fundamental skills required for employment and therefore potentially can compete for a reasonable wage to ensure their future security." < http://www.joomlashack.com/joomlashack/ ... inner.html >

I think we should empower the community, as much as we possibly can, to make it very easy to establish a JUG. That way, if someone does not like the emphasis and focus of a group within their community, they can establish their own, as well. I love the license for open source because it is so liberal. There are no restrictions on what you can build or do with the software. And, that liberty helps us freely create what we need in our communities to help solve our problems.

I know we will be able to work together to achieve the same impact. We want an empowering and liberating set of guidelines that help people all over the world establish JUGs so that they can meet other people who have common interest and help each another learn and use Joomla! for the reasons important to each of them. That might be commercial, it might be humanitarian, it might be for a college course assignment, it might be for a job they have, or it might be because they are just curious! In any event, they should be able to do so easily given the guidelines we help provide.

Rafa shared this link < http://www.apple.com/usergroups/questions/ > and I love that approach to making it simple to get your own group started. Easy.

Shaifful - I am *thrilled* to have you participate with us. Again, please help to spread the word. We want the involvement of others. Thank you, very much!

Amy

I wanted to let the group know that I posted in the Translations Forum "Call for Participation in Formation of Joomla! User Group Guidelines" < http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,140318.0.html >.  Please continue to network and invite others to join with us.

Cheers!
Amy

:LOL:

Wau you get really (positive) crazy about this.

Ok some feedback, toughts.

a) I support Brians attempt. Please go at least one step backwards and try to focus on the basic concepts for the people who are interested in JUG's. Personally I think meeting each other in real life should be the main difference between a JUG and a community - just from the understanding.

b) please don't make it to complicated. As more rules (e.g. special domains) you require as more restrictions you set up. Make it simple as I feel that JUG's are very flexible groups.

Just my 2 cent

Alex

Hi Akede

Agreed -  I think what is needed initially is an active space where people can easily meet others interested in forming a group.

A few months ago someone posted on Drupal.org looking to form a Drupal users group in Atlanta. Because Drupal make it easy to promote and organize a group, we were up and running within a couple of weeks with around a dozen interested people. There were no special rules or affiliations needed.

In contrast, I posted a message on Joomla.org about a Joomla users group in Atlanta and one person answered - from Alabama.

I think the difference is that people don't really know where to look.

Steve

You mentioned groupjive.org earlier. Do you have experience of using it. It looks like i could be a really useful tool to assis the organisation, promotion etc of JUGs

Hi Brian

Unfortunately not - I haven't set it up from scratch on a new site yet.

I think its a real sleeper of component - not given nearly the prominence it deserves. I only found out about it a few weeks ago when I saw a client had it installed.

They seem to be downplaying its development status at the moment, but a stable release might be coming soon. This was posted on Saturday:

Groupjive Revision 89
Written by Michael Perthel 
Saturday, 10 February 2007
Sorry for the delay, here is the current build. Please download the latest revision here.

Groupjive is still under development and we hope to release a nearly stable version very soon. Until then you can test our development builds. Please report any bugs in our forum.

Excellent guidelines, Alex! Thanks for sharing those and please keep track of us and help direct us in a positive manner. Your involvement is very much needed and appreciated.

Steve - perfectly put - it should be as easy to start a group as it is to FIND a group. Low barriers for involvement. That's really what I took Cindy's comment to mean when she said suggested thinking of this as a "club!" Simple and easy.

At this stage, we are gathering interested people. No one should be alarmed at any ideas, no commitments have been made. We will start a new thread with the draft and we should be very careful to stay on topic in that thread. I think it will be helpful to publish some guidelines, too, so we don't get stuck on one aspect of this. This is more of a getting to know one another thread and gathering spot.

I plan to send a note to the Community Builder folks and also GroupJive to see if they will join us in this discussion, as well.

Please include anyone you think might be helpful and interested in this discussion. It is more important that we involve people then hurry along with the framework. So, network with others and invite them to join us.

alledia wrote:Hi Akede

Agreed -  I think what is needed initially is an active space where people can easily meet others interested in forming a group.

A few months ago someone posted on Drupal.org looking to form a Drupal users group in Atlanta. Because Drupal make it easy to promote and organize a group, we were up and running within a couple of weeks with around a dozen interested people. There were no special rules or affiliations needed.

In contrast, I posted a message on Joomla.org about a Joomla users group in Atlanta and one person answered - from Alabama.

I think the difference is that people don't really know where to look.

Hmm - but I think the forum you posted it in was exactly the right one (http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,342.0.html). Everything that is related to community/JUG events should be posted there.

Alex

Hi Akede

Thats right - I think the problem currently is that many people aren't aware of the possibility of forming JUGs.

We need to publicise the idea of JUGs.

Ok this is where I can help - an other blog post I need to write

Alex