Sandbox

While writing about JObject I wasn´t aware of the discussion in this thread...
It reflects perfectly my concerns!

I think I am more or less offering the so-called "munchies"... and also agree that its content may be a bit "chaotic" (is it?)... but I am also waiting or wishing for the so-called "larger scheme"... in fact, I started JObject thread because the whole 101 forum was a "metaforum" only discussing about itself, and I decided to start with something, anything... (with some intuition but absolutely no scheme, I confess...)

When I started writing, I assumed knowledge about PHP and OOP concepts, but as long the replies came, there was a changing in the direction, so now it seems an OOP class using JObject as sample. It may be interesting, because people learn OOP and JObject at the same time and subtly are being educated to code in J! style. But that was not the intention when opening the thread, it is a reflection of the feedback.

Now, I put some links of references to the OOP concepts needed for the understanding of the posts on themselves. The "linking" nature of the web is helping me to keep the thread focus on Joomla's JObject, but as you can see in "toString" method discussion, it should be one paragraph long with the assumption mentioned previously, but became an OOP lesson...

Also, I am now concerned about the humor. I´m afraid some little jokes can confuse the readers... It is entertaining to me to write with some humoristic style but I am starting to question myself if it is appropriated for something which can become a documentation. 

Finally, I will change username from "uberlandia" to "jbruni" (I created uberlandia because I lost jbruni´s password and didn´t find how to recover - asked about it in 101 chat in Skype and Ian kindly helped me on that. Thanks!)

I'm sure that it would be necessary to do some 'house' cleaning on JObject to get it in a more suitable form without external comments.

This next week will hopefully begin to solidify different areas and allow people to more easily find what they might be looking for as far as content go.  You can see here the discussion about subforums ( http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,199815.0.html ), which I invite feedback.  I am going to go to the powers that be after we have some feedback on subforums, and when we've gotten to the point where we have a useful breakdown of topics, suggest them and see how the forums shape up after that fact.

DRAFT OUTLINE
Joomla! Beginning Developer Course


Prerequisites – solid understanding of how to install and configure Joomla! core and third party extensions; basic understanding of website administration, including how to install and configure PHP, Apache, and MySQL and how to backup and restore a Joomla! database and website; working knowledge of XHTML and CSS; either some programming background or a willingness to work harder to learn the basics. Other than that, the Joomla! Beginner Developer Course assumes you come ready to learn with nothing more than basic computing and Joomla! knowledge.

Costs - There is no cost for the course. All recommended tools are freely available. Students are expected to have a computer with Internet access. Work will be performed on the student’s computer or using Joomla! org resources (at no charge).

Overview – The six week course will offered to a group with no more than 10 participants. Each student will work independently on course reading assignments and exercises. The group will proceed together, meeting frequently using Skype and Joomla! forum postings, helping one another learn and answer each other’s questions. It is hoped that each group will improve the curriculum and documentation for the community.

Week 1 – Developer Tools, PHP and MySQL Basics

Tools (Download, install and configure developer tools; sign up for IDs, etc.)

• Joomla! Forum ID – register http://forum.joomla.org/index.php?action=register and read (and follow) the rules http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,65.0.html
• XAMPP (or another local server of your choice) http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp.html
• SVN Access - Tortoise http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/ and hooking up to the development trunk http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/17/60/
• IDE = JCode http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/jcode/ (CirTap’s Building the Ship post http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg941185)
• Skype - http://www.skype.com/download/ (Link for chat - http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg943299 For Linux - Ian's instructions - http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg943632
• PHP Manual http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php
• MySQL Manual http://dev.mysql.com/doc/

PHP and MySQL Fundamentals

• SQL - http://www.w3schools.com/sql/default.asp
• PHP - http://www.w3schools.com/php (Basic, Advanced, Database sections)

Week 2 - Object Oriented Programming

• Fundamental concepts - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-ori ... rogramming
• Real world scenario with PHP constructs – Ian Part 1 http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg943596 and Part 2 http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,200694.0.html
• Object Oriented PHP – NefariousDesigns
• Object-oriented Concepts http://nefariousdesigns.co.uk/archive/2 ... -concepts/
• Object-oriented PHP Part 1: Definition http://nefariousdesigns.co.uk/archive/2 ... efinition/
• Object-Oriented PHP Part 2: Relationships http://nefariousdesigns.co.uk/archive/2 ... tionships/
• Object-Oriented PHP Part 3: Taking Relationships Further http://nefariousdesigns.co.uk/archive/2 ... s-further/
• Object-Oriented PHP Part 4: PHP5’s Improved Features http://nefariousdesigns.co.uk/archive/2 ... -features/

Week 3 - Joomla! Developer Basics

Framework

• Overview and Packages http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/1137/80/
• Study the packages and classes by looking at your Joomla! v 1.5 installation (Question – do these need to be updated?)

API / Classes

• JObject by jbruni - http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,200185
• JApplication - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... plication/
• JError - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... es:jerror/
• Using the 1.5 Database Libraries - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ase_part1/
• Now, review other Joomla! API classes in the reference Wiki http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... framework/
• Element list (classes, methods and properties) for Joomla! Framework (Ian provided – Question – can we have a couple of examples of how it would be used by a developer?) http://api.joomla.org/elementindex_Joom ... ework.html
• XML Parameters - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... arameters/
• Path Constants http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... constants/
• Storing Variables http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... _variable/

Modules, Components and Plugins

• Definitions – bascherz http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg941029
• Database Schema - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ase/  (Just so you know where it is as you develop)
• Using database classes in your script http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ase_class/
• Simple module from scratch – Chris http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... llo_world/
• Simple Component from scratch – Chris (we need to finish these for ) http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... omponents/

Plugins and events

• Guidelines http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... es:plugin/
• Create one http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... te_plugin/
• Use one http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... g_plugins/
• Review events – look at code – find missing documentation and create a couple for the team - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... s:plugins/

Week 4 - MVC Component – Ian – Creating Custom URLS

• Frame http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... orld_mvc1/
• Model http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... orld_mvc2/
• Database http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... orld_mvc3/
• Admin Interface http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... orld_mvc4/
• Creating Custom URLS - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ter_part1/

Week 5/6 –Development - Build things! Installation packages – JoomlaCode and JED

Study: Secure Extensions - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ke_secure/

Learning Project

• Individually or as small teams, pick a popular tool and use it to create a Joomla! extension http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg939050
• Package as an Installation file http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... stallfile/

JoomlaCode

• Get an ID on JoomlaCode http://joomlacode.org/gf/account/?action=UserAdd
• Rules and Guidelines http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/2333/98/
• FAQ - http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,150087.0.html
• Create a new test project for class http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/1092/73/
• JoomlaCode questions here http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,406.0.html
• Upload to JoomlaCode test location.

Joomla! Extension Directory

• Get an ID on JED http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... ,register/
• Read and follow rules http://extensions.joomla.org/content/view/12/36/
• Read the Instructions for using the site http://extensions.joomla.org/content/view/15/63/
• Ask questions about JED here http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,262.0.html

[color=red]Graduation![/color]

After completing the six-week course, you will have only started your journey. Once a week, we will schedule an hour for a mini-lesson that a growing group of Joomla! developers can take turns teaching. During this weekly get together, ideas and questions can be shared to help engage and strengthen the developer network. Perhaps the core developers might take turns sitting in and share status information or helpful hints.

Possible Weekly Mini-lessons

Ideas about lessons given (primarily) existing documentation. It would be great to have a weekly developer meeting for those who wanted to attend. Take turns teaching. Get updates from the core devs, if they chose to sit in and had something to share.

• Language - Internationalization - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ines:i18n/
  Languages http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... languages/
• JoomFish
• Authentication Plugins http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ins_part2/
• SSL - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... lines:ssl/
• Upgrading Extensions to v 1.5 http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... sions_fit/
• Connecting to External Database - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... _database/
• Mail to Friend - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... om_mailto/
• Popup Window in Components - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ing_popup/
• Joomla! v 1.5 FTP for Safe Mode http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... using_ftp/
• Debugging tips - ?
• Caching to speed up your code - http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... g_caching/
• phpPatterns -  http://www.phppatterns.com/docs/?idx=design
• vMooTools - http://demos.mootools.net/
• XMLRPC - ?
• Templating jdoc tags
• Template overrides

I tried to combine all of our ideas and what is an AMAZING wealth of documentation already available. For the PHP, MySQL and OOP, I turned to resources outside of Joomla! org that, to me, look suitable. It is an aggressive schedule.

Please review for:

• Relevance - are these skills needed by J! devs?
• Sequence - is it the "right time" to learn?
• Substance - enough? too much? more needed? for the week?
• etc.

For those of you who have solid technical footing, will this give the new developer what is needed?

Tear it apart - rearrange - add - subtract. You will not hurt my feelings.

Thanks!
Amy

Perfect! I would only change the word "week" for "month". 

Amy, it is really AMAZING, and I am happy with your fantastic draft!

Certainly, relevance / sequence / substance / etc. should be reviewed.

This post is only to share enthusiasm! 

WOW

Amy, I just wanna say that you have made a very cool and very extensive list!!! I will go through the links to see if anything could be added or changed.

For the class, even though it is for learning J! code, it might be a good idea to start the class project a bit earlier on, taking into account debate and discussion, planning, but also to apply what you have learned each week to some part of the project, to the custom extension. That is the only thing I might change for now...

That is outstanding, exactly what we need
Folks I tried wading in, I keep finding that I need to go back further and further.
I think this gets you grounded before diving in. Once you graduate, you could help others through.
Maybe after enough people graduate, there could be Mentors available to work with new students.
[size=100][size=100]
Amy thanks[/size][/size]

Amy,

Brilliant!!!! Sign me up! 

Is there a way to get a printed copy of the API?  I know it may sound a little corky but I find it difficult to sit in front of a computer screen to study API's.  Ian mentioned that the UML diagrams may be a little outdated and that's okay, I suspect that the API will grow and change too rendering my printed copy obsolete but I think it would be a good start.

seadap wrote:Is there a way to get a printed copy of the API?  I know it may sound a little corky but I find it difficult to sit in front of a computer screen to study API's.  Ian mentioned that the UML diagrams may be a little outdated and that's okay, I suspect that the API will grow and change too rendering my printed copy obsolete but I think it would be a good start.

Not at the present time although we would like to make this possible in the future.

Regards,
Chris.

You've outdone yourself Amy.  That's excellent!

Guess we've got a starting point.  We'll have to see how we can go about getting something started in the not too distant future.

This week I thought I'd get the sub-forum discussion moving and perhaps we can get the sub forum setup finalized and possibly instated.

I sure would love to have a Wiki to work with for this course material. I have plenty of webspace that can be used and domain names and ability to install and configure Wiki's, but, I would personally prefer we stay at Joomla! org. At this point, I think we are going to be very constrained if we don't have an environment, like a Wiki, where we can collaborate.

Should I set one up for our use? Or, can we have one here? Even if we do so temporarily, I can zip the file and send it in to Joomla! org when we are complete.

Ideas anyone? Chris - Ian?

I believe Ian stated earlier in this thread that he is working on getting us access to the documentation Wiki. I am sure there are logistics involved to work that out.

I asked earlier in perhaps this thread or another about what format these "courses" would be presented. Will they be something on the order of slideshows, screencasts, webcasts, or just in-line textual Wiki examples?

Amy, one thing you listed in your tools list was SVN. But I don't see anything in the outline that explains why it is important when a team is working on a project together. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on this somewhere would be valuable? Just a thought. Maybe it's there, just in the noise.

I think by now it should be becoming apparent the amount of work we're signing up for here. And the level of attention to basic abilities that has been included in the outline may attract PHP developers in general, not just Joomla! developers.

bascherz wrote:I believe Ian stated earlier in this thread that he is working on getting us access to the documentation Wiki. I am sure there are logistics involved to work that out.

Missed that, thanks!

bascherz wrote:I asked earlier in perhaps this thread or another about what format these "courses" would be presented. Will they be something on the order of slideshows, screencasts, webcasts, or just in-line textual Wiki examples?

I think "all of the above" should be anticipated. I know there are plugins for Wiki to embed video, etc., so, hopefully, that will not be a problem technically. As we get started, having the course outline with links and text would be the first step, IMO. I think this course will mature over time and I would like to set expectation up front that each time a class works through the material that they find some way to improve it.

bascherz wrote:Amy, one thing you listed in your tools list was SVN. But I don't see anything in the outline that explains why it is important when a team is working on a project together. Perhaps a bit more emphasis on this somewhere would be valuable? Just a thought. Maybe it's there, just in the noise.

You are right - I really did not articulate my thinking on that and I appreciate you asking for clarity. In doing so, I think we might begin to build consensus on where this could potentially head.

tjay mentioned observing a collaborative development environment. I very much want to see that emerge. Again, as new developers come in, setting community expectation is another benefit beyond simply building technical skill.

In my thinking, there is real benefit to having third party developers hooked into the current Joomla! development in order to help test, provide patches and bug reports, and to keep their extensions current. So, helping new developers know how to access the SVN right away could encourage that. We might also want to explain how to report a bug. To be honest, I think current instructions are contradictory and confusing. On the dev site, the menu link "report a bug" goes to JoomlaCode. I have no idea how to use that thing and I'd be scared to death that I'd do something wrong and get into trouble.  There's a How to get involved link that has bug reporting, and more, but the links are outdated with v 1.0.x and v 1.5. I think it would be good to smooth that information out and include reference to it in the beginning curriculum.

I think having weekly training sessions where - at least once in awhile - developers swing by and exchange ideas - is another way to support that collaboration.

So, as you can see, I am not only thinking about skills but also about helping new developers get good information and connections so that they can become part of the community - to contribute. Maybe we need to add a section towards the end that addresses developer involvement in the project. At that time, the SVN, testing, bug reporting, patch submissions, etc., could be addressed.

bascherz wrote:I think by now it should be becoming apparent the amount of work we're signing up for here. And the level of attention to basic abilities that has been included in the outline may attract PHP developers in general, not just Joomla! developers.

Yes. Agreed on need to consider, again, personal commitment. I don't mind attracting PHP developers, provided they contribute to Joomla!, but I would be concerned that this became a "PHP resource." But, I don't see that happening.

I think it's important to make certain we include PHP, MySQL and OOP resources. We have many community members who understand Joomla! administration and/or template development very well, who want and are able to have deeper involvement with J! development. They need those resources and the confidence knowing it's okay to come in, even absent those skills.

Those with those skills should be able to either join in immediately and support learners, or catch the group at week 3 (or start a group that does not need the first two weeks.)

Having said that, I think it's just as important that we find external resources, rather than create these resources for our learners. To be valuable for learning, it does not have to be "invented here." By using the external resources, we are not taking on more responsibility for curriculum but we can help those who want to "crossover" and the community can tap into what I believe is a group of people with very strong potential.

What is your thinking on these things? Good issues.
Amy

bascherz wrote:
I asked earlier in perhaps this thread or another about what format these "courses" would be presented. Will they be something on the order of slideshows, screencasts, webcasts, or just in-line textual Wiki examples?

I would like to try my hand at creating the screencasts.  I've been considering doing it for some time for other projects.  I'm not sure how much work is involved but I like to teach and create geeky tools like that.  I'll start experimenting with screencasts about how to set up the software pre-requisites that Amy outlined and let the community judge weather they are worth it.

Excellent! What tool will you be using, BTW? I've use Camtasia, but it would be great if we adopted an open source solution. Does anyone have ideas on that? In terms of work load, I think screencasts can be a bit to do BUT, in terms of learning material, very powerful.

Good points Amy, and I don't think we need to recreate the wheel here.  We should utilize what we have at our disposal, both with Joomla and outside, if it benefits the progress of development.

There's so much stuff out there, we'd have to narrow the field a bit so we could decide on some common work to use for study.

Fortunately, there IS an open source solution that does pretty much the same thing Camtasia does. It's called CamStudio, and you can get it here: http://www.camstudio.org/

EDIT: Rumor has it that Windows XP also has something built-in that will work if you download this thing also. I haven't used it.

@Amy I agree, open source is the idea.  I don't want to shell out the big bucks for camtasia anyhow.  I've read there are some open source solutions for Linux etc.  I'm thinking I will be using something like that as I use J!code in a virtual machine using virtualbox.  I think I will be able to record the entire desktop using the linux software.  Not sure yet-more experimenting to do.

bascherz wrote:Fortunately, there IS an open source solution that does pretty much the same thing Camtasia does. It's called CamStudio, and you can get it here: http://www.camstudio.org/

EDIT: Rumor has it that Windows XP also has something built-in that will work if you download this thing also. I haven't used it.

I will definately look into thboth of those solutions also.

Ian has created a "spot" for us to use on the Joomla! Developers Wiki entitled Joomla! Development for Beginners. 

This weekend, I would like to take our initial outline idea and create a "table of contents" for our course. Then, it would be great to start splitting up the work and getting this baby rolling.

So, for the next couple of days, let's review and revise ideas on the rough draft outline and consider what pieces you are interested in helping with. This will be a group effort and we should BOLDLY go forward and BOLDLY revise one another's work so that this turns out to be very helpful to many people.

Who wants to help so we can get IDs setup on the Wiki and what sections do you think you'd like to tackle, first? Also, what changes do you propose to our draft plans? And, of course, we can change as we get rolling with the wiki, too.

Thanks Ian for setting us up and for all of you for your contributions,
Amy

going to need to do some thinking on this, but I should be able to help
I just finished a major oracle project at work so next week I should be clear to lend some time

I think I'd like to continue to tackle the ide and other tools question.  I think that would be my choice for now.

bascherz wrote:Fortunately, there IS an open source solution that does pretty much the same thing Camtasia does. It's called CamStudio, and you can get it here: http://www.camstudio.org/

dunno if it's open source, but it's freely available and a nice piece of software (Win only)
Another is Debugmode's Wink for Windows and Linux. It's great to create annotated and interactive click-through "animations" which are saved as .swf (Flash) files wrapped in a simple, static html file or compiled into stand-alone windows executable (Flash-Player) - Takes a few trials to learn how mouse-moves and clicks are recorded and played-back.
The resulting files are usually pretty small compared to the videos created by CamStudio, and: there is no sound, unless you add some afterwards using Flash.
Here's a link on HOWTO: Create Screencasts using Wink on Ubuntu

bascherz wrote:EDIT: Rumor has it that Windows XP also has something built-in that will work if you download this thing also. I haven't used it.

hmm. I can only find/see the encoder which IIRC exclusively creates Windows Media files (.wmv) that only play "well" on Windows. Altough transcoding this to .flv or .mov is possible, it requires other skills

CirTap

[quote=∓quot;CirTap"\]hmm. I can only find/see the encoder which IIRC exclusively creates Windows Media files (.wmv) that only play "well" on Windows. Altough transcoding this to .flv or .mov is possible, it requires other skills[/quote]

There is a freeware transcoder very good and complete. Take a look at http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html

I don´t like their site, but the software is good. I have it installed and works very well.

Ok, so as requested by Amy, here are some notes about providing documentation for the Joomla Documentation Site.

If you scroll down the pages, you can find this little note at http://dev.joomla.org/

Developer Network License
The Joomla! Developer Network content is (c) copyright 2006 by the individual contributors and can be used in accordance with the Creative Commons License, Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.5

Ignoring the year stated, this basically means: in order to publish documentation on this Joomla! site, which includes the Wiki and such, authors are expected to release their publications unter this Creative Commons licence. You can find the full text here: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by- ... /legalcode
and its short "deed" here: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/

[quote=∓quot;Creative Commons Deed BY-NC-SA 2.5"\]
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.5
You are free:
    * to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work
    * to Remix — to adapt the work
Under the following conditions:

• Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).
• Noncommercial. You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
• Share Alike. If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.

• For any reuse or distribution, you must make clear to others the license terms of this work. The best way to do this is with a link to this web page.
• Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.
• Nothing in this license impairs or restricts the author's moral rights.

[/quote]

Noteworthy reading: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/dis ... up?lang=en (a bit hidden on the CC Deed page)
and http://creativecommons.org/worldwide

As the author of an original work you're free to do whatever you want with your work according to the copyright laws of your jurisdication. Similar to the (other) "tree-letter licence", the CC Deed is about distribution of your work and its re-use by others. Read the legals text, it's a single page and easier to grasp than "the other licence"
It is translated and made available in a buch of languages. You should be able to pick one you can read and understand.

I hate this ... Disclaimer: the citation of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.5 Deed is based on the content of this public URL http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/ as of today, 17. Aug. 2007, and copyright by Creative Commons.

Happy writing,

CirTap

jbruni wrote:[quote=∓quot;CirTap"\]hmm. I can only find/see the encoder which IIRC exclusively creates Windows Media files (.wmv) that only play "well" on Windows. Altough transcoding this to .flv or .mov is possible, it requires other skills

There is a freeware transcoder very good and complete. Take a look at http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html

I don´t like their site, but the software is good. I have it installed and works very well.
[/quote]
thanks for reminding me I actually have this soft downloaded a few weeks ago, but haven't used it since (there's so much stuff in my "stuff" folder ... really need to clean it up ...)

and you're right: their site-design is very "special"...

CirTap

I added our draft outline this morning and made changes for headings, etc., but the save did not work on the wiki and I have asked Ian for assistance. Just wanted to let you know that I still hope to get the outline there today so that we can split up the work and get rolling on this!

Thanks,
Amy

AmyStephen wrote:I added our draft outline this morning and made changes for headings, etc., but the save did not work on the wiki and I have asked Ian for assistance. Just wanted to let you know that I still hope to get the outline there today so that we can split up the work and get rolling on this!

Thanks,
Amy

Ian and I worked on it this morning and got it fixed (for me at least).  I'm working on getting the howto for the IDE uploaded now.

Scott -

I was just about to give you the page for your IDE tutorial. But, if you are putting the documentation into a location other than the Beginner's course (which makes some sense), then let me know what the page is and I will link to it. Otherwise, I'll give you the page so it all snaps together.

Thanks!
Amy

Edit: Scott - if you want the page I am planning for you to use, create one here: JCode IDE Configuration. Otherwise, just give me the URL and I'll link it in. Thanks so much for your contributions! ... Amy

Here's the page I'm already using: http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... nners:ide/

The links inside it are broken right now but I'm working on it.  Do you think I put it in the right place?