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gsbe wrote:This is a "practice what we preach" issue. We want EVERYONE using and developing for Joomla! to be successful.

All Extensions are welcome that meet the Extension Directory Rules.

I fully agree. The more support for Joomla the better. Unfortunately commercial support is essential to opensource to be successful wether you like it or not.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and ask why is it such a horrible thing for people to make a little money off of quality software? Most of us (I think) are still using Windows, Office, Photoshop, Norton, etc... If a commercial application is of better quality than the free counterparts then let the market decide what is best. I would wager to say that a decent group of people are drawn to the platform based upon some of these mods. If you can't afford them, that's too bad, but thankfully there are still quite a few quality GPL/GNU works out there. Quality is quality, regardless of its pricetag or perceived value.

I have to admit, I'm tempted to ask how many of these people that adore Open Source but abhore Commercial software charge for building websites for clients?

Oops, I just did.

This looks like the subtile trolls/flames so frequent lately in these forums. 
IMO, the supposed contradiction between free and commercial Open Source software is not worth discussing any more.

Vimes wrote:I have to admit, I'm tempted to ask how many of these people that adore Open Source but abhore Commercial software charge for building websites for clients?

Oops, I just did.

I am right here with you on this and I hope they all donate to Joomla, the ones making commercial extenisons and the ones offering proffesional services.

First of all, how DO you donate to Joomla! ?  Why is there not a link on this site to do so?

Also... don't worry about the debates ... even if it looks like 'trolls/flames' ... I appreciate the openness and believe that these debates really do help the community build consensus. 

Many times, I think "nice" people just want everyone "to get along" and inadvertently shut down the debate too soon. If the issue is not resolved, it will just rise up again or we will lose people.

I have to admit. I had the same question when I looked at the extensions site. I think the points raised are good ones. Should commercials extensions pay a fee - I think it's a reasonable answer IF the Joomla! org has need for the funds.

On the other side, having ALL choices - free and for a tiny-fee - in one place gives the consumer great information. Why would we not all be for that?

But, again, the most important point is -- how do we contribute financially to Joomla-proper?  Maybe all of you already have and I am the only slacker. I do want to help that way, so please advise!


BTW - not all of us are "in the business" to build websites with Joomla!.  I work in IT "by day" using Microsoft products (ASP, SQL Server) and SAP. I am completely taken with Joomla! and have been learning all I can. I work with a high school web development team who are competing using Joomla. They would NEVER have been able to afford to do what they can do with Joomla (let alone have the skills.) I also use Joomla for not-for-profit sites for my school system, church and community. It would be FANTASTIC one day to do it for a profit -- and part of the pricing would have to include a portion for the real developers. (This would be an interesting "other" thread to see what people are doing and talk business plans.)

some time ago I posted
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,3351.msg26448.html#msg26448
and no answers

I would definetly be interested in discussing how to start a business partnership with joomla.
I have many ideas but maybe it's not the right time yet since the topic is not mentioned that often.

pc wrote:some time ago I posted
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,3351.msg26448.html#msg26448
and no answers

Most likely your post title did not accurately describe the topic and therefore did not draw interested contributors
" discussing the route ahead " « on: September 02, 2005, 11:33:41 AM »

pc wrote:I would definetly be interested in discussing how to start a business partnership with joomla.
I have many ideas but maybe it's not the right time yet since the topic is not mentioned that often.

However, I would be VERY interested in exploring the business application side of Joomla.  I use Joomla for both not for profit communities,  as well as for commercial applications.  It can and does  serve both. 

Happy to start new thread/post on this.  Topic suggestion?  "Using Joomla in the Business World?"  or ?

paulmark wrote:Happy to start new thread/post on this.   Topic suggestion?  "Using Joomla in the Business World?"  or ?

Sounds great, paulmark...how about "Building a Business Case: Joomla! usage in Commercial Markets"

The mixing with commercial components is very shady and there is one particular reason for it. As a user I should see in one glance if a component is commercial or not without having to go to third party's site and read eg Phil's corporate pabulum about it.

Here's an idea: include an $ icon when a component is commercial so I can skip it.

'$' Extensions are already 'flagged'  in the list as  " Commercial License "

Habbekrats has a point: the symbol "$" will probably be easier to understand than the words "Commercial License." Especially for those truly sensitive to the free enterprise system. On the other hand, for those able to use the phrase "corporate pabulum","Commercial License" should be reasonably understandable. Personally, I had to look the word up in Dictionary.com! (Not corporate...that I understood.)

Amy,

You might want to check out the following site:

http://www.justgiving.com/joomla

That's the only official request I've seen so far from the Joomla team. If any of the sites actually make any money then a portion of those funds will be donated to this cause. It would be nice to see some of the commercial developers do likewise, even if it is a small amount. As time moves on though, we'll most likely see a foundation for direct donations to the Joomla Open Source project. We haven't been debriefed on this recently, but hopefully it is still in the works.

Habbekrates,

You can choose to ignore any item listed as...

License: Commercial License

The license details for GPL, GNU or commercial is posted at the top-right of every claimed extention listing. You shouldn't have to visit the author's website to get the full details.

there is a proper way to meet any specific goal...

Limiting who gets listed on an extentions site does not help promote open source in fact it has the opposite effect of hurting Joomla by denying a developer recognition of his support of an open source product like Joomla!

If you really want to promote Open Source properly the proper course of action is to make Open Source extensions that can replace the commercial offerings Which will have two effects...
Give people a free option that others in the community can work on improving and inspiring the commercial developers to make their product even better thereby making Joomla (an open source project) even better as well!

These commercial offerings are not hurting Joomla and if anything they are hurting themselves because most people who run a free CMS will not be willing to even try their product!

Joomla itself supports OS because there was a fear the CMS was headed towards commercial status...
If you don't like commercial software, then you should do what the Joomla Devs did to support Open Source...
Make a project under open source that can do what the commercial project does!

As for me I don't care if they are commercial or not I only care about wether they do the job I need done...
If a free project fits my needs I use it...
If the only project that will do what I want requires a purchase well I at least want to know it's there!

I would rather know about 100% of the projects developed for Joomla as opposed to 50% because I threw out all the pay for play options!

capitalism isn't bad...it is greed that is the real enemy!

TheSaint wrote:You might want to check out the following site: http://www.justgiving.com/joomla

Thanks, Saint...but, that closed in January. I am hoping that *soon* there will be a way to give a little back...very soon, I hope!

Asphyz...you are right on when you said:

Asphyx wrote:capitalism isn't bad...it is greed that is the real enemy!"

That is the truth.

Sorry about the link being dead. I forgot that it was going to expire, it was just in the bookmarks that get shuffled around. It would be great to directly donate to the Joomla project, however there was some business and legal aspects that are still being worked out. (If you search for 'donate' you'll see several other folks wanting to give in the past as well. It is a good sign!)

TheSaint wrote:Habbekrates,

You can choose to ignore any item listed as...

License: Commercial License

The license details for GPL, GNU or commercial is posted at the top-right of every claimed extention listing. You shouldn't have to visit the author's website to get the full details.

Not clear enough. Look at this Globodigital Support Center. In one glance it just looks like one of the cool components. In fact, the download leads you to their commerical site with labyrinth Interaction Design that leads to purchase now buttons and a horrible and lame IonCube Loader install. Is that open source? This will seriously screw some noobs up. Me included. I simply haven't figured out how to exclude commercial licenses. I confess I am a dimwit but even dimwits should be able to do this. Shady.

It just looks like true open source components and tellsell buy-nows are talking through one extension site mouthpiece. No matter how much backslapping goes on in in this thread I repeat: the mixing set up is shady and unclear, especially to new users.

So much more clear:

Habbekrats wrote:Not clear enough. Look at this Globodigital Support Center. In one glance it just looks like one of the cool components. In fact, the download leads you to their commerical site with labyrinth Interaction Design that leads to purchase now buttons and a horrible and lame IonCube Loader install. Is that open source? This will seriously screw some noobs up. Me included. I simply haven't figured out how to exclude commercial licenses. I confess I am a dimwit but even dimwits should be able to do this. Shady.

It just looks like true open source components and tellsell buy-nows are talking through one extension site mouthpiece. No matter how much backslapping goes on in in this thread I repeat: the mixing set up is shady and unclear, especially to new users.

The license is clearly listed as commercial on their listing:
http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/

We have included specific warnings for users regarding extension licensing in the "Using this Site" manual:
http://extensions.joomla.org/content/view/15/63/1/8/

I'm not sure I agree that including a graphic icon is going to change anything. We clearly list the license type throughout the site.

Habbekrates -

Honestly, I think it is *you* who is not being clear. Maybe I am wrong -- it's happened a time or two before -- but I think if you were being clear, you would simply say that you object to "for profit" extensions being listed at all.

And, if you would just say that, I could respect your opinion and would be very interested in reading your rationale for that position.

But, you seem focused instead on what seems to me to be a minor point of how the commercial aspect was represented on the page. Earlier in the thread, you had suggested a red font/bold dollar sign be used.  Now, you appear to be suggesting that a gigantic graphic much larger than the picture of that beautiful baby you have for your avatar be used.

So, please be clear yourself.  What would it take to make you happy?  Reasonable minds disagree -- and I respect differences of opinion -- but your position is not clear to me.

Please tell us specifically what you want.  A red font? A gigantic picture of a dollar sign? The commercial extensions removed? What would make you happy?

What would make me happy would be more careful wording in your response. Am I one of the "backslapping" people on this thread? Is that a bad thing? I felt it was unfriendly.

I think we are all here for the same reason.  It's okay to disagree but let's do it in a clear, productive manner. Let’s try to influence people to accept our position, but let's accept that we won't all get our own way.

After all – Joomla! Is free! So, we are most definitely getting MUCH MORE than we are paying for!

Thanks for listening. Have a great weekend. Do something fun that doesn’t cost any money ;-).

AmyStephen wrote:Habbekrates - .....

Please tell us specifically what you want.  A red font? A gigantic picture of a dollar sign? The commercial extensions removed? What would make you happy?

Oi woman, you are needy

A red font? Would be an improvement. Gigantic picture? More likely an icon with a dollar sign, or Euro/Yen or the present Swahili currency it's all good. Commercial extensions removed? Nah. What would make me happy? Dopamine.

Anyway, you had your fun but please don't trivialize my intentions Amy. You seem eager to cover it all under your veil of "love".

LOL!  Dopamine just makes you feel happy.   LOVE makes you HAPPY!

I apologize. I really don't want to trivialize your intentions. I just wanted you to chill.  I honestly don't know how I feel about the commercial pieces being listed, either. I really DID want to hear what you believe to be a good solution.

I hear you suggesting an icon with a currency sign.  I don't see any problem with that suggestion. It's a good one, I think. It should make the differences clearer. It seems this matters to MANY people on this thread -- not just you.

I would also like to suggest that somewhere down the road commercial products pay a fee for the listing to help fund the Joomla effort.  You know, spread the love! We ALL need to help that way.

Thanks for your response and the friendly jab.  Much appreciated!

I for one think an icon (perhaps something similiar to the icons alread displayed (for components, bots, templates, language, etc).
As for the commercial products paying a small listing fee, the jury (in my head) is still out on that one. But it could be a good idea - to help pay for server space, bandwidth, etc.

AmyStephen wrote:I hear you suggesting an icon with a currency sign.  I don't see any problem with that suggestion. It's a good one, I think. It should make the differences clearer. It seems this matters to MANY people on this thread -- not just you.

I would also like to suggest that somewhere down the road commercial products pay a fee for the listing to help fund the Joomla effort.  You know, spread the love! We ALL need to help that way.

Thanks for your response and the friendly jab.  Much appreciated!

Oi woman, you are needy

I don't know you seem to be the one with the needs here....

You don't like how they are identified
You don't like the linkage used to get to them despite the fact that the linkage isn't something the team can control...
you want a bandwidth eating icon instead of a sleek and simple text stating commercial license

It just looks like true open source components and tellsell buy-nows are talking through one extension site mouthpiece. No matter how much backslapping goes on in in this thread I repeat: the mixing set up is shady and unclear, especially to new users.

It's not shady as it is clearly marked on the page...You just happen to need lights and sirens to alert you because you don't read a page you simply browse! And you make it sound as if the second you click on a link that you are being charged for something...that is not the case!

If we were top change anything about how commercial sites were listed and linked it should be to get a referral fee from the publisher to help pay for the cost of running the extention site!

but please stop trying to assert there is something SHADY about listing every component be it OS or commercial on a single site...The purpose of the site is to inform users of what there is out there they can use...
It is not a PAC on the concept of Open Source nor is it a scam to get you to buy commercial components!

It is simply a site to inform users of projects that support and run under Joomla. It does all that including informing them wether a project is commercial or Open Source!
And it does that in an honest and forthcoming method...
Just because an air raid siren doesn't blow for each commercial project doesn't mean the site is trying to hide the fact they are commercial!

It's not the Extension site team's fault if you didn't look at all the information they provided.

Well said Amy.  Lets reset and stop chasing our tails.

Seems to be 2 separate topics on this thread:

1. Identification of Commercial Components
Habbekrats orig request may have merit:

Habbekrats wrote:Here's an idea: include an $ icon when a component is commercial so I can skip it.

Altho the extension list already CLEARLY tags commercial extensions as "Commercial", it may be worth considering a more universal icon that is easily distinguised ( for our non english speaking community ) .  Suggest a simple icon - a white dollar sign inside  a green circle : $   ?

2. Inclusion of Commercial Components
I do not sense that our community actually has any philosophical issue with including commercial extensions in the list.  Clear rationale on this thread is sufficient.  Suggest this topic is wrapped and summarized in an FAQ so that future questions by noobs and others can find.

Can we please move on to greener pastures now? I don't think this discussion is not getting anywhere at the moment, and the value of this thread is deteriotating.

pmark - I agree with your two conclusions - i think it meets with the general feeling of the group. this is not an ez issue, so, no worries anyone. thanks!

I believe that the issue of language support and how it is displayed in our listings is a MUCH more important topic. Please consider putting your well-considered words and energies into solving this problem. 

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,45156.0.html

I'm hard-pressed to understand how limiting information and choices can be considered a "good" for the J community. I'm a penny-pincher from way back when, but I still want to see ALL my choices so I can make an informed decision.

===================

That being said, I would much rather see resources devoted to contacting developers, encouraging them to take "ownership" of their listings. Orphan listings severely hamper the utility of the extensions directory for everyone. 

OTOH, devoting resources to hide or relabel "commercial" listings only impacts a few users and a few extensions.

yabba dabba wrote:That being said, I would much rather see resources devoted to contacting developers, encouraging them to take "ownership" of their listings. Orphan listings severely hamper the utility of the extensions directory for everyone.

This is a good point and one that myself and the other editors will be discussing. Thanks!

gsbe wrote:This is a good point and one that myself and the other editors will be discussing. Thanks!

God bless you for your charity towards my otherwise cranky remarks.