Sandbox

Well, thanks for clearing that up

spacemonkey wrote: The only thing that must change is the name, which we are working on at the moment.

But (I suppose) the copyright line in the source files giving credits to Miro must be kept; almost until the last line of code created before the last week will be purged (a bit difficult until Mambo 10.0, I suppose! ;-)). And I'm speaking of @@@@@ 5.0, too, not yet released but full of Miro copyright lines...:-(

And maybe It'll be important than the new code added to the project will be identified and properly copyrighted...to whom? a foundation? maybe giving IP to the GNU Foundation?

spacemonkey wrote:But since everything has been released under the GPL, even the copyright is rendered mostly insignificant.

Since all we love GPL, there isn't problem with copyright, but...what about the community wants to switch to next version of GPL? With Miro copyright in part of source, it cannot be posible to switch to another (and maybe better) GPL license version...

rootropy wrote:Since all we love GPL, there isn't problem with copyright, but...what about the community wants to switch to next version of GPL? With Miro copyright in part of source, it cannot be posible to switch to another (and maybe better) GPL license version...

According to http://mamboserver.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=83
"Mambo is released under the GNU GPL. A copy of this is included with your copy of Mambo and can also be found at http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl.html."

Checking the license at that FSF URL we see in clause 9:
"Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation. If the Program does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation."

Checking the copyright notice in index.php we see:
/**
* @version $Id: index.php,v 1.9 2005/02/16 02:03:33 eddieajau Exp $
* @package Mambo
* @copyright (C) 2000 - 2005 Miro International Pty Ltd
* @license http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html GNU/GPL
* Mambo is Free Software
*/

Which means that the code does not specify a specific version so any subsequent recipient of the code can use whatever succeeding version of the license they want.

Therefore, if the new GPL is better for OSMMambo, it can be applied whether Miro likes it or not.

(I am not a lawyer so usual disclaimers apply to the above.)

alandd wrote:Which means that the code does not specify a specific version so any subsequent recipient of the code can use whatever succeeding version of the license they want.
Therefore, if the new GPL is better for OSMMambo, it can be applied whether Miro likes it or not.

thanks, alan! I'm feel better now  .

Then, the only question is the trademark of the name. Is there any posibility of core team claiming it? Their effort have given a considerable amount of added value to the trademark Mambo.

alandd wrote:(I am not a lawyer so usual disclaimers apply to the above.)

so will it remain under the name mambo?  or will you all remain it to something else?

Will there be a new website? or will this continue on the existing?

I wish you all the best of luck... we really like Mambo and hope to support the team when things get situated.

thanks,
†B†V†

rootropy wrote:Then, the only question is the trademark of the name. Is there any posibility of core team claiming it? Their effort have given a considerable amount of added value to the trademark Mambo.

I'm sure this OSM-based project will have to come up with a new name.  Who added the most value to a trademark does not determine ownership.  Besides, the developer team did all that work willingly with full knowledge of Miro's ownership of the trademark.

No, there are lots of reasons why the developer team cannot claim any rights to the Mambo name despite all the work they have done.  Not the least of which is the desire to keep lawsuits from happening.

Again, I am not a lawyer.  And I should add I am not a developer so I do not speak for them.  I'm just a happy Mambo user imagining what I would do if I were in the developers' shoes.

I'm new to Mambo and fell in love wih tthe software within a few minutes and n am now basing my business plans around using mambo and related plugins, mods, etc.
I will stay with the developers and relinquish the mambo that we have known and go with the developers versions and roadmap. My only regret is I love the word Mambo, and hope you can work things out with Miro to use the name. So many people haveinvested so much marketing time and effort in the useof the word mambo that this should be taken into consideration. \but like i said even if you cant still use the word mambo, I'll stick with the devleoper Open Source side of things, not the centralized authority as imposed by miro. What is goign on with the guy, why is he being so dense and just let go. surely he cant really be enjoying the bad kharma he is rackingup form 2000 registered users in just 5 days, come on dude, be the hero and giv eit all up no strings..... you have it in your power to be the Hero, and we all here will sing your praises, but that means let go totally.....!!!!Amen.

Elpie wrote:It was a waste of time.  All six posts, plus others I had made, have all been deleted.
Responses to those posts have also gone.
  ....
Shame.

I totally agree with you and it just shows how disgraceful they are to anybody right now, to the core dev. team and to the community in general. Now lets just hope the best under these new circumstances. I must admit it was quite a contrast logging in to this forum. Full of energy to move on. This is a good sign for the future of this project.

Best regards from Norgaard 

man_of_mr_e wrote:While I'm certain the core devs had good reasons for what they have done, I think most everyone else here is over reacting.  Here's why:

Foundations are legal entities, and because of this, you have to have formal methods of voting by the membership.

You are right, but it seem to be very obvious that this wasn't the case with the Mambo foundation... I believe and without knowing exactly what was going on something in this matter was very fishy. If you take your first sentence and compare it with all written topics around specially at mamboserver concerning this matter and catering need and passion of greedy circumstances and just to mention the one about fees from 3dp says a lot and it just doesn't match the real world. The second and the largest $50k to pay for influence would be the same as selling the power and control of the product. The only good things in this idea of a foundation is the need of structure, we all have this experience in the computing world and how easy it is to get off track sometimes with missing structure... It would be fair enough for 3dp companies making lot of money based on developement for a cms to donate something back to the community. What is very unfortunate when you have to pay fees like that is that you really has to raise your prices with the risk of loosing market. Maybe okay for larger companies but not  fair for the smaller business.
Mambo has taken many good awards. Now Mambo history also includes "How to make most dammage to a opensource project"..... Thanks to Mir*

I wonder what they think over at Linuxworld?

I believe that the Core team did the right thing.

Norgaard  ::)

Just my 15 cents

Regards from Norgaard

Thousands of Mambo users and I all think you guys did the right thing!  Nice works CORE devvelopers, and don't let them push you around.

First off... To the devs, I was supprised to see it, but wasn't suprised at all that it happened. If There's a question that comes to mind, it's only "What took you so long?".

As a long time user (since v.3), supporter, 3PD, service provider, forum participant, et all - I had a full spectrum gut reaction to the initial M/M relationship anouncement that left me feeling there was the potential for disaster within the announced changes and direction.

3 months later and having added several posts asking for even generalities on where the announced projects were headed, they went unanswered and for the most part ignored by anyone/everyone who might have an answer or even a hint. That first reaction started to go from bad to worse. The more I read, the more information I gathered, the more 'actions' I witnessed... I got the distinct impression that money and power were more important than every single line of well crafted award winning code. Users, developers and the community's concerns didn't seem to play any role in what was happening as time went on. In short - the proverbial 'handwriting on the wall'.

It's worth mentioning that this isn't the first or last time something like this has happened - OS or commercial - and more often than not, the end result has usually been positive... no matter what the details and reasons were behind the events that started it. With the code being GPL, there's no reason to believe that the end result here can't be positive too, especially when 100% of the talent comes along with the code. That in itself should tell you volumes about the dev's and where they stand.

As it was mentioned in earlier posts, some of us have spent a fair amount of time or money - or both, to promote, market, or provide services or products for Mambo from both the OS and Commercial perspective. Although it may cost a little in the short run, adjustments can be made and everyone should be able to benefit from what at first may seem like a fatal blow. It's evident from the support shown in the forum here and postings elsewhere, that there's a large group of people in it for the long run - whatever the name will be - and I include myself in that group.

Some of my sites may take on a new 'personna', and ads and tag lines may change - but I'll stick with the date that brung me. 

Hello Dev Team,

Mambo is a geat CMS.. And when you release a new cms like mambo i gone use it.. Thnx for all the great work

Thanks for working so hard.  I just learned the news today.  Been busy lately.  I was surprised by the news, but have always trusted that something better would come about in the horizon for OSM ... for the community.

As a newbie, I hope that mambo can move on to better stuff in the very near future.

cheers!

Is the well-read one the last communique of Miro in mamboserver.com, there is understood that Miro tape-worm planned to extract the complete team of development to replace it with your own team. I think that payment is too much for Miro to remain with the version 4.5.2.3. But for having yielded his your first version that one receives this way. Now we must continue with the community of Code Free for X-mos's new version version 1.0.

Hello xmaboers.

Now, that we are all reunited in this forum again, I would like to suggest one thing which could turn our beloved CMS called mambo into a more professional standards.

I been using mambo for half a year now, most of that time I spent in exploration and experments... any way, I always felt fortunate for finding such a beautiful and powerful CMS but I never liked its name at all.

Now, after all what happened I think the fresh start should touch the core element of all that, so may I suggest one small thing.

From the board announcement I learned that the name (MAMBO) will be changed to another one, and thats all fine but what I worry about is that it will take up another name that may not be exeptable to all users.

My suggestion to the board of developers is to run a contest in which every body could suggest the new name for *ambo. and later on one name could be chosen through some sort of a machanisim. I am sure the developers have previous experiences in such matters.

Finely. Mambo was great and I believe it will turn into a better one very shortly.

Thank to each of the developers whom remained loyal to us the community.

Jalal Joblo

My suggestion to the board of developers is to run a contest in which every body could suggest the new name for *ambo. and later on one name could be chosen through some sort of a machanisim.

There is a thread discussing the name already, check it out

http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 272.0.html

--Slixter

Have a look at:

[url=http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/software/soa/miro_backflips_on_mambo_copyright/0,2000061733,39208129,00.htm]ZDNet 22 Aug 2005
[/url]

Not sure that article, and their actions really change anything. I could be wrong, but my guess is some of the biggest challenges have to do with the cost of entry into the "foundation" as well as who's on the board.

Friday, 26 August 2005 
What can happen in two weeks? A lot!

Where is the point 4 ?!?! 

Just got back from my holiday and found out what has been going on.  It's taken me two days to read the relevant threads both here and on the other place.  When I first read the news I had a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach but as I have read more and more on this site I am now quite excited at what the future holds for my favourite CMS.

I am new to Mambo and indeed web design but am keen to learn.  Despite having a lot to learn I still managed to help a couple of people out at the other place with my limited knowledge and hope that I can continue to do so here. I am looking forward to being a member of this community.  The entheusiasm on here is encouraging.

From what I've learnt over the last couple of days I'm certain the devs have made the right decision.

Like the personal touch with the avatars as well. Cool.  Apologies for my ugly mug.

doctorlife wrote:Where is the point 4 ?!?! 

Opps, typo - fixed now.

Thanks.

You're Welcome 

Just a number problem, no info forgetting

Waiting more info in special on point 3 (I need to replace some portal) ... bye bye to all 

Di

Dixen wrote:
I think you guys are being far to quick to judge, and not thinking things through a bit.  Miro is a corporation with a Legal Department, an Art Departent, and at the *very* least some form of PR department.  The *know* the screwed up with the foundation, and the *know* they screwed up when they lost their core dev team... they however did *not* screw up by putting out *any* kind of release.  Their release says they are going to continue the development cycle, and it says they are going to continue it *NOW*.  Not next week, not next month, and certainly not after they put together a new dev team for the Open Source project.

I guarentee you that they had their own dev team looking at the source code long before now... I guarentee you that as soon as the core dev team walked they had *someone* coming up with a plan; and I'd be willing to bet this "beta" release is just another step in that plan (as someone else mentioned in the last 6 pages of this thread).  I'd further venture to say that they have been playing with the CVS they have for more than 2 weeks, and already have ver 4.5.3.1 ready to leave the shop *and* have their framework in place for 4.5.3.2... Why?  Cause it's a complete screw job from here on out.  It's about creditbility in the community and if the masses continue to see *ambo, Miro, and now the foundation furthering the project then it all goes to discredit the core dev team and "the way they left".  Remember, Miro just pushed through the IP and copptrights going to the Foundation and we all know it was nothing more than a PR move...

Bottom line here folks, take a step back and seriously consider what you are saying... Miro thought they could pull the foundation off before anyone noticed... I don't think they are going to repeat said mistake.

I think you may be right.  Look what has actually happened.  Miro now controls Mambo. They have gotten rid of any "renegrade" members of the community.  They will own the name and will end up with a platform that they did NOT FULLY control before.  They also own the old Forge and Forums  They own the old user base..  Sure, they may have lost a huge chunk of the community and some very talented developers.. but, medium to long term, they will have control of a product that can generate cash, and business prestige (also known as good will),  if handled correctly.  If OSM continue to develop their own "fork",  so what.  The community that followed OSM to this site was unlikely to generate much cash for Miro anyway.  Sure, Miro may have missjudged the intensity of the communities reaction, but as long as they keep enough users and keep developing their product I am sure they are OK with the recent developments.

Miro may have started the Mambo wave, but they lost control when they released the source and created the OpenSource opportunity.  Maybe they had to do it for business reasons, or the plan was to get a great deal of development done by the OpenSource commiúnity for free and then try to reclaim the product at a later date if it ever took off.  This it has clearly done and they want it back.  Smart move back then, smart move now.

The only thing that can scupper their plan is if this OSM community moves fast with their own "better" release and convince ALL the 3PD coders to follow.  The release will have to be better than Miro's and has to be sold well.  The MF site and the Old Mambo is lacking the personal touch (afterall they are not talking to anyone or telling anyone who they are) and this is a huge mistake.  I think that they assumed that they had more time and are focusing on replacing their infrastructure rather than listening to the users.  Of course, there cannot be that many actual people involved their end so they will be spread failry thin.. or at least so it appears.

Another thing, I am also sure that they did not count on so many developers leaving... How on earth are they going to convince quality programmers to come forward and take over the development of their product.  They will  1) not be paid (I assume)  2) have to live with the fact that they are working for a dubious organisation  3)  likely be working on a doomed product  4) have to face the wrath of the majority of the "real" comminity that took Mambo to where it is today.  Who, with any talent or experience of Open Source development would opt to work for them.  I guess only people with an axe to grind or with something to prove "against" the real Dev Team.  In any case, they are likely to be "second rate" and disorganized.  This has been "Proved" by their recent Beta release.. From reading the forums it is poorly put together and full of bugs that should nopt even have reached Beta stage..  Did Miro get someone (and I mean one person) to quickly pull togther a hasty release as a marketing ploy?  If more than one developer was involved it is likely that more bugs would have been found pre-release.. such is the nature of a team effort.

In short, I think Miro are following a plan.  The plan is to improve their maket,  business position and product portfolio.  Agressive and Unfair as it may be -  it is smart.

If the OSM product will be the survivor a number of things need to be done quickly as per their announcements.  Very correct and considered.  The plan seems smart and I for one (of many) am definately buying into it.

Also, if the Devs had not created this site, written their initial letter and supported the creating of this Forum the story would be very different today.  Thank you!

The rest of us mere mortals can help by spreading the word around the forums (me with inate little remarks I'm afraid).  Those that can, and there seem to be many, can help by helping Newbies and supporting the product on ALL forums, both here and at MF.  The bottom line should always be to point out that the OSM site is where the action is and where every one should gather.  It will also be the site where the innovation that created Mabo as it is today will flurish.

I am not experienced in Web Site developement and I am not a programmer, but I DO NEED Mambo.  As the owner of a small struggling business it has enabled me to create a web site (togther with an experienced Mambo user initially).  It is a great tool and a great product.  At some point I would like to pay the community back in some way...  Like all users I guess.

Writing this post and leaving little remarks around the forums is my way of investing in my Mambo future and trying to support the community in the only way I can.  If the communuty has some better ideas or suggestions please let me know.  How SHOULD we all be behaving to benefit ourselves and OSM?

Thanks!  Keep up the good work.  It's a great ride and it WILL succeed.

Thomas

And if Miro are reading this topic do you think that they are laughing at our trying to guess their plans or getting nervous because OSM is much more organised, focussed, supported (2,352 members in 12 days) and on the ball than they thought a renegade bunch of core devs would be?

For an academic view on the DevTeam/Miro Relationship and their decisions "against each other", the game theory by John Forbes Nash jr. may be a good starting point.

Theoretical, it must have been a better choice to hold "branding", "intellectual property" and "community power" together. But everything is only theoretic until decisions change any theory to reality.

After the devTeams "letter to the community" i feel that i have to make a decision. First i´ve tried to go into the situation as much as possible. To find out, what might be the best choice for. After Miro started censorship in their forum, my personal choices reduced to one. I can bear with trustfulness, with censorship i can´t. So, for me, it has been an easy decision. It doesn´t matter any more, what may happen on the other side of the moon. And, for sure, it does matter, what happens on opensourcematters.org. In a "Nash view", it is save to say, that OSM is the best choice in our cooperative game.

Today, only 14 days later, nearly 2.500 members at opensourcematters.org are configuring the new project. I believe that if all of us proceed with the project in this manner, we will succeed. The project could be much more successfull than in the past, because working together is the better business model.

Best regards,

Joern

thomas.dahl wrote:Miro may have started the Mambo wave, but they lost control when they released the source and created the OpenSource opportunity.  Maybe they had to do it for business reasons, or the plan was to get a great deal of development done by the OpenSource commiúnity for free and then try to reclaim the product at a later date if it ever took off.  This it has clearly done and they want it back.  Smart move back then, smart move now.

Good post Thomas.  The comment I've quoted here is right on.  On 23 April, 2003, Miro stated:

"We put Mambo on Source Forge in order for people to help get the code 'straightened out' so that it could be re-released commercially."

http://web.archive.org/web/200304240517 ... cle&sid=69

They made no secret of their intentions and I guess that the latest move should not really have come as much of a surprise, given the awards Mambo won.  However, in all their PR they emphasised the importance of community and I doubt that anyone could have imagined Miro being prepared to soundly shaft the very community who made those awards possible.

OK guys, i'm really confused. I've been away for a couple of months and it seems i missed alot. (There is no way I am going through 26 pages of posts.) Can someone please point me to some posts that explain in totally dumbass terminology what the hell is going on?

EDIT:
OK, i'm going to ask for further explanation on this thread: http://forum.opensourcematters.org/inde ... 003.0.html

This

thomas.dahl

guy

needs to be promoted to class president. Just click up a few pages and you'll see his in depth analysis.
Your insight is WAY beyond the pettiness and small talk provided by others.

The number 1 reason I picked *ambo in the first place was in the breadth and depth of it's community. There were just too many people enamoured with the CMS. I checked in at Miro from time to time but never saw their commercial CMS as a better product. All costs considered.

As this project has indeed gone way past the success Miro expected IMHO they had to regain control(it was becoming a threat), and the 3pd would begin to make addons that would rival commercial grade systems (which will make it a bigger threat). And then they would have a real problem. They are a business and will think like a business. So all decisions they make will be from a capitalistic slant.

All decisions from the new OSM, if based on the community concept, will undoubtedly take this project to the natural level it was headed. The capitalist will get out of it what they want, and they will invest only what they have to maintain a LEAD position. Until they are faced with a different competitive threat.

You will create and present a competitive threat IMHO by continuing an environment of community and openness.

If 2500 people/members contributed 2 quality hours a week for one year estimating using a value of $40us/hr you would have a capital investment of  $10,000,000. This power and value would be of grave concern to a company.
So use your strengths.
The above is 260,000 hours.
If MIRO did it at $125 the investment would be $32,500,000 plus equipment, software and facility. Probably a $50,000,000 investment.
So use your strengths.

There is no way MIRO would invest that much cause im sure they use $125 an hour for productivity analysis.
I think, we win. They will maintain. MIRO knows what they are up against and they have to move fast, this community only has to move right. MIRO will do what it needs to make it look good.

OSM only has to continue on the path they were headed to develop the product they way they always have.

HOWEVER, the power of this community is not in the name, it is in everyone contributing something, others critiquing the something, and coming out the other end with a true collaboration that forces change. MOTIVATION and MOTIVATING People(especially volunteers) is extremely difficult in a money driven society.

The FORK was one of allowing *ambo to continuing to grow in it's strength. I've downloaded installed and used 453beta(I'm just a simple small time user) and the OSM developers IMHO have moved the yardstick AGAIN inspite of the bugs people say exist.

453 is the end of the road for that stream.

Since it is this GROUP that creates the core code, it is this GROUP that will continue to be the Leaders and the yardstick movers. Capital, Servers, Names, computers (all can be easily found)

Community, not so easy.

PS I shall find a place in the community to contribute, and I will help move THIS project forward.
MercedesAMG
(My son just bought a used mercedes with the AMG package, my sons initials are AMG, He's happy)

ibnkuldun wrote:OK guys, i'm really confused. I've been away for a couple of months and it seems i missed alot. (There is no way I am going through 26 pages of posts.) Can someone please point me to some posts that explain in totally dumbass terminology what the hell is going on?

Just read the Letter to the Community here, and the two week update: http://www.opensourcematters.org/

At the end of the day, that is ALL that matters.  The "hows and whys" behind this would take you days of reading, both here and at the mamboserver forums, plus there are announcements on Miro, the Mambo Foundation site, all the Foundation documentation, and probably some of the more balanced news articles as well before you would have a good understanding of everything that has transpired.

Starting to read at this stage is guaranteed to give you a headache.  It's probably better for your blood pressure to just know that there has been a parting of the ways between the core team (whole core team, not just devs), and community on one side, and Miro/Mambo on the other.  (By "one side" I was not implying that there is any need to take sides with this split, just to realise there are now two streams heading off from the original Mambo project).

Yes there are a lot of good people on OSM. The other mob are using statistics (e.g. 40K plus users) in all their spin doctoring press releases, and I just returned to the dark side to see if they had deleted me. I have tried pleading, officially requesting, insulting, breaking all the forum rules, all to no avail. Once they have you they won't let you go.
I wonder if they deleted all inactive (for one year) accounts and any new accounts added (post split) how many supporters they would really have. The new tactic they are employing is creating new accounts and flaming anyone still telling the truth (e.g. absalom). I assume they are Miro development team members or wanabees trying to get a position of power.
However this is the right team and please let us all be patient with the core team. Releasing 4.5.3beta is one thing (since it was there anyway) but re-inventing the whole development process, sorting legal issues etc., is another.
I personally am preparing a letter to IP Australia to seek a rejection of their current Mambo related trade mark submissions. I will post the letter when submitted. Sure its a good idea to change the name for us, but someone should attempt to level the playing field so they can't control it either. I will also write to Mambo Graphics the international clothing manufacturers and urge them (as an original owner of the Mambo trademark) to do the same.