Why are commercial components allowed?

ArtFusion · Post by **ArtFusion** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:30 am

I beleive there shoudl be Free Open Source and Commercial Open Source extensions in the directory but not closed source encrypted extensions like Recipes Pro.

Open Source does not mean free as so many peoplle in this thread have mistakenly made the equation. Open Source means that source code is open.

I am glad that the Commercial softwareis listed in theis directory, as I am a purchaser of these quality components, that are well made, and save valuable time.

I do not believe that the Joomla Philosophy should allow closed source extensions at all in this venue.

Post by **ivo.apostolov** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:19 pm

I should agree and disagree with ArtFusion.

1. I agree that commercial addones can be open source from one side, but from the other the code is not open for me. So where is the thin line between Free Open Source and Commercial Open Source. If the commercial one is Open, why it is not open for everyone

2. Encrypted addones IMO MUST BE REMOVED, they are not open source at all.

Ivo

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:59 pm

I agree. Excellent point.

Post by **manuman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:32 pm

On the encrypted vs open code...

The purpose of the extensions site is to "help users of Joomla!" find the extensions that best suit their individual requirements for their individual sites. There are certain extensions which are only available in closed source components and there are others where the closed source component is vastly superior to any open source equivalent.

To restrict commercial (encrypted) components would be restricting the Users of Joomla! from easily finding the best option for their own requirements. IMO its not up to any of us to dictate what other users should be using. If you don't like closed source don't use it, whether or not its on the extensions site really isn't going to hurt anyone.

Just my two cents and in the interest of transparity I will soon be producing closed source third party extensions... so its possible I'm a little biased. $:-\$

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:36 pm

These questions are always problematic and lead to philisophical discussions about open and closed and for profit and for free...and methodists vs catholics...

I don't blame you for going closed but would hope things stay more open. I do believe in the power of the broader community; if you close it down, you'll lose a lot of good eyepower review and others will lose the opportunity to learn. However, it's your choice and I would *never* take that away from a developer.

Bear in mind, closed goes in a different direction and once it starts rolling, I think much will follow.

I wish you only the best; thanks for all of your contributions.

Vimes · Post by **Vimes** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:42 pm

I happen to agree with manuman. Developers choose to encrypt their code to prevent people from stealing their hard work, and I empathise with them. Jomres & Jombok aren't closed because providing booking services is a subjective thing, what looks right for one web developer isn't right for another therefore I choose to leave the paid for versions open for people to edit, but I don't doubt that this strategy costs me sales. Further, demo versions of Jomres are encrytped which allows me to put a time lock on them, if I left the demos unencrytped I wouldn't make any sales at all.

It would be wrong to say that developers who sell encrypted copies of their component be excluded from the Extensions site because the purpose of the Extensions site is to show people what tools are available to do a job, not whether or not the developers subscribe to one ethic or another.

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:47 pm

I am so new to the open source community, you all will have to bear with me. I think its an amazing model -- coming from years of IBM and MS background. Developers have to get paid and, as a developer with a family, I appreciate that.

Make a good product. Serve your customer community. Have a nice dinner and a good beer. Just don't cheat people or steal someone else's work and I think it's all good.

One point to add: just bear in mind, the open market takes care of the real "judgement" process. If most believe it's okay, you'll sell product. If someone else can do it better, or if they do it "open" and people prefer that, they will sell product. So, in the end, it probably isn't so much a philosophical debate as it is an economic issue. The trick for a developer will be to read the market correctly and follow suit.

You both should do well since you are so talented *and* good-looking, so, worry not.

Asphyx · Post by **Asphyx** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:51 pm

I don't see what the point of limiting what gets on the site is...

the site is there so that the USERS can decide what they want to try...
It is not there to make a stand or fight for a cause or to support ANYTHING but the people that use Joomla....
And they will not be served or supported if we have some other criteria deciding what they can and can't choose to try!

There is only one criteria for the extensions site and that is it must work with Joomla in some shape manner or form.

Any other criteria is irrelevent.

So lets stop trying to make the site a crusade for Open Source or FREE Software...
It already has it's cause and it is a crusade to let users of Joomla know what is out there they can use on thier site!
If they can use it in Joomla it should be included!

Post by **ivo.apostolov** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:09 pm

So from the last posts I see that the Open Source doesn't really matter. What was the problem then Mambo to be Free, but not open source? Why the developers left it then? Does it matter?

@Vimes - encoding demos is quite different from encoding PRODUCT. I totally agree that you must encode your demos

1. Nowhere on the site, I was able to see that the component is ENCODED, neither on the product site. I found it some of the forums.
2. Many people use commercial addones for the clients, should they encode Joomla!

?
3. According to me, the so discussed idea of the "one central repository" is not a fact (correct me if the idea in the forums was different), as there are addones which CAN NOT BE DOWNLOADED.

-------------
I am sorry but this brings totally wrong impression to a total new user. A site pretending that Open Source Matters to advertise Closed Source Applications, because this directory is not a repository. Because it is and advertise and nothing more.

Post by **manuman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:15 pm

@ Amystephen - Your quite right in your comments about it really being a philosophical debate. From that angle its very insteresting and worthy of a healthy debate, which we have here. Incidentally, congrats to everyone in this thread for level headed comments on an emotive subject.

There will always be Open source extensions, personally i have several and more on the go... if I didn't believe in open source I really wouldn't be here and I certainly wouldn't have produced anything open source, but I really belive and hope there is space for open and closed.

Personally my descision to also produce closed source commercial extensions has several reaons...

1. To allow me to devote more time to Joomla!
2. A bit of extra income as I start a family ( Did I mention "she's" due in July

).
3. I can't design! (severe lack of artistic ability) so templates where out of the question.

Anyway... heres to open debate in open source

Cheers all

Post by **manuman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:24 pm

@ivo.apostolov

As a new user you may be un-aware that early last year a number of commercial components that were "Open" started apearing on various warez sites. The developers (remember this is their primary income) were forced into a need to better secure their components. The people that should be laid to blame are the ones that made the components available.

Incidentally... the site is running on a wonderful commercial component that would not exist if we made life too hard for the commercial developers.

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:24 pm

Oh MY!!!!! Congratulations to you and your wife on your new baby girl! July baby - wow!!!! My baby girl is 17 and my baby boy is 15. I cannot fully describe for you how amazing your life is going to be. Yes, OpenSourceMatters, but children -- they are the what counts!!!!!

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:25 pm

The above post is separated from this post because the above post is the most important!!!!

I hate to do this because it is so obvious that [insert religion here] is so much better than [insert a different religion here.]

There is not a correct answer to this question, folks. The only reason that this discussion matters has nothing to do with people's opinions on which way is better. It is because the free enterprise system WILL have the final say and Joomla! will stand or fall based upon that judgement.

Check out reality: http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php? ... Itemid=143

Do you think in one year's time that there will be more than 100 active CMS products on that list? Not a chance. The list WILL thin. Winners will emerge; losers will be lost in time. What will be the reasons Joomla! withstands competition? After the battle is done, analysts could comb back through history and reasonably explain the result. Until then, the game's on. The group with the strongest marketing plan and a decent product will be there. Not visa-versa; if you don't believe me, check out MS products, dudes.

The Joomla! Core Team needs to very carefully position their product into the economic stream that they believe will yield the most long-term benefit.

So, who are they marketing to? The core appears to be marketing the open source market. They are hitting Linux conferences this year (http://www.joomla.org/content/view/689/79/ -- and please leave a donation while you are there!) NO other conferences are on the agenda at this time. The question is this, then, how are Linux folks going to feel about closed source? Will it turn off enough of them to check out Drupal, PHPFusion, Mambo?

I would encourage developers to stay in touch with the marketing plans of the core team and not rest back on your heels too soon. I am hopeful Joomla! will make it, but this next year will be a real test.

So, why does it matter what extensions Joomla! lists on the site? Well, you are the company you keep. If "open" is key to marketing - it cannot look insincere; it must be genuine. Joomla! needs to very carefully and pragmatically position itself and protect its image. Otherwise, none of us will be around in a year's time to say "I told you so!" or "See, you were wrong!"

And - for those of you who want things to be open and free forever - please explain to me how new, beautiful babies are fed and eventually attend college AS IT SHOULD BE!

Now - noone attack Ivo Apostolov. He simply makes my point of perceptions.

Asphyx · Post by **Asphyx** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:26 pm

So from the last posts I see that the Open Source doesn't really matter.

Not in regards to a site dedicated to helping Joomla users find add ons!

OSM is a site for promoting open source...
the joomal extention site is a user support site to help users know what is out there be it pay or free!

It is not a site made to crusade for open source!

What was the problem then Mambo to be Free, but not open source? Why the developers left it then

They left because they no longer had control over what they did if they stayed!
Had n o control over the future of the project and if Miro decided to make it a commercial product the Devs couldn't stop it...
That is why they left, so lets step off the open source soapbox and come to reality as to what this extentions site is about...
It isn't about
Open Source it is about INFORMATION for users...
And limiting the information they get does not serve them at all!

Post by **manuman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:36 pm

On the positioning...

Open Source is a chameleon by nature... its a hobby, a business, a toy, an adiction... whatever, its allows involvement at a very personal and individualistic level.

It is therefor very hard to pigeon hole and/or position, as what it is, is very much in the eyes of the beholder.

Personally thats what I find most attractive about open source... its whatever you want it to be.

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:39 pm

Are you considering variations of "Joomla!" for your daughter's name? We could open a thread to help you and your wife come up with just the right name?

Post by **manuman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:42 pm

ROFLOL... that would be the fastest road to divoce I think

We have a name but at present its closed source

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:44 pm

LOL! See - now, that's not nice - we all want to help with the name! Well, if you change your mind...just let me know!

Post by **ivo.apostolov** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:44 pm

Imagine that you have Photoshop for free

But you are not able to open/edit/create even one file without it's commercial, closed source extensions!!! Does it make sense to you?

What I can see is happening with Joomla! is a slow but secure trend that the system will become paid, because in one moment you will be able to get it for free, but you will not be able to do anything with it till you don't pay.

Please take a look at the screenshot and tell me if this looks fine for you? Does it?

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:54 pm

Ivo - I am with you; I think you make a good point. I think it's a tricky issue, is all.

I like 'manuman's" statement: I really believe and hope there is space for open and closed.

And, eventually, that willl be. A user/customer can enter and stay there at a certain level for free; to further enhance, there is a price. Developers have to get paid. I mean, honestly - that's a reality, right?

Interestingly, you will see the "big iron" companies going the other direction. IBM released an open source database product called "cloudscape." http://www-306.ibm.com/software/data/cloudscape/ and they are considering a free distribution (closed source) db2 product http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051118-5601.html

The market itself will be sorting this all out. My only point to all of this is that Joomla has to securely enter the market, first. That's why the extensions convo is important. Or, all bets are lost -- for the core team -- for the third parties -- and most importantly, for the users!

The issue you raised is really a good one. I think even those dev's thinking closed source are only doing so in order to preserve their unique market position (since people steal) and because they have their own personal demands (like new Joomlatina).

It is all so very interesting and easier to look at if your own personal future is not directly tied to the result ;-).

Post by **manuman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:55 pm

Sorry... what am I looking for. I know it's a commercial component but I'm assuming there's something about that listing your refering to.

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:57 pm

He is saying that the extensions site proudly announces "because open source matters" and, directly beneath, lists a "closed source, commercial product."

It is at best ironic, at worst hypocritical.

...If I might be so bold as to put words in your mouth, Ivo. (Sorry if I am off base!)

Asphyx · Post by **Asphyx** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:08 pm

Imagine that you have Photoshop for free
But you are not able to open/edit/create even one file without it's commercial, closed source extensions!!! Does it make sense to you?

Now imagine a Adobe plug in site that only limited the plugs in you could find to only FREE plugins
And there were none...
So the site would say you can't do anything with this Joomla Product so go by Typo3
Is that what you want to happen?

This site is about Joomla not Open Source!

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:11 pm

Asphyx wrote:This site is about Joomla not Open Source!

Ya know, you are really answering a question that Ivo is asking, Asphyx.

He is asking is this about Open Source? And, if it is not, why does it say "Because Open Source Matters?"

So, if what you are saying is true, I'm with Ivo, why does it say "Because Open Source Matters?"

I do not believe the core team would agree with your statement, though.

Post by **manuman** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:26 pm

OK... understand, I was looking down the arrow. Personally I have no problem with that, in fact I'm probably one of many that didn't even make the connection.

Anyways... it slate here so off to bed.

PS... Welcome to the documentation team!

pc · Post by pc » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:26 pm

All right, have seen all the views until now and made and got my conclusions:

1) The majority of the Joomla developers have their own commercial products that help them to make a sustainable income and therefore the listing of commercial components (encrypted, decrypted zipped and unzipped) will continue to exist.

2) Open Source is the most powerful tool to promote your commercial products/services and Joomla has opened the door to this in my opinion "pushy" approach.

3) Look in download.com. do you remember the percentage of free/open software listed in there a few years ago and compare it wih the actual situation. This will replicate here and in time only new projects will remain OS but inevitably open source extensions listed togheter with commercial extensions will be lost in a cloud and not have a chance.

"I paid for compoents such as phil-a-form or mosets hot properties because they were the right choice for the specific requirements so I don't have a problem with paying. I do have a problem with been pushed to my face with stuff that I am not asking for because I consider it as spam."

My final suggestion for the extensions site is a big button in the top "Surf Free Components" "Surf All the Components"

I still believe donations would be enough to joomla to keep a nice team running with no problems and the developers could be fully dedicated.
PC

PS: Add other than PayPal because my country isn't listed

AmyStephen · Post by **AmyStephen** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:33 pm

Goodnight boss! (glad to be a part of the team!)

yup...no worries pc.

ArtFusion · Post by **ArtFusion** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:43 pm

Open Source does not mean Free
Open Source can be Commercial
Open Source Matters implies there is only open source extensions
I embrace commercial
I believe developers should get paid
I buy licenses
I donate to Joomla
Encrypted demos would be fine in my view
Product on this site, joomla directory of extensions, should not be encrypted and closed.
I will never ever use a closed source extension no matter how good it is.
Just my opinion on that.
Perhaps the medium ground is a separate category for closed source encrypted extensions.
Although that would not be that in keeping with Open Source Matters, it might be good compromise for those who feel they must encrypt.

Vimes · Post by **Vimes** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:43 pm

ivo.apostolov wrote:Imagine that you have Photoshop for free
But you are not able to open/edit/create even one file without it's commercial, closed source extensions!!! Does it make sense to you?

What I can see is happening with Joomla! is a slow but secure trend that the system will become paid, because in one moment you will be able to get it for free, but you will not be able to do anything with it till you don't pay.

I think you're misunderstanding what's happening here Ivo. You have a valid worry that to use Joomla then you'll have to pay money, but that's not how things happen.

Commercial developers create software that fits a given niche. In the case of Jomres for example it's complex software that has taken one year to develop, refine and market, with very few days off and many 10-14 hours days. This software isn't for everybody and it's often too much for some users and they choose instead to go with Open Source products, eg AKReservations. I have no problem with this, and in fact I welcome it because it shows the world that there's a market for both OS and Commercial on the same platform.

Take Open Office as an example. There's a reasonably good application that does what it says on the tin. It's a word processor, spreadsheet etc application. When people ripped off MS Office it's because they wanted word processors and spreadsheets, so OO arrived to fill the niche. When people want complete office solutions, they still buy MS Office.

What you're afraid of is that you'll get Joomla for free and everything else will cost you money, but you can rest assured that this will never happen. If it's possible to build an application/component to do a job and it doesn't take hundreds of hours to develop then applications like that will always be free & OS, it's only when you start wanting applications for free that have taken the developer many many hours to create that you'll run into problems.

pc · Post by pc » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:49 pm

The last but not least...

I am might be really out of place, and I please make me change this position...but let me explain an extreme situation

"I am thinking what would be the future of Joomla when developers having their own commercial interests are stearing the product... what would be the answer if it had to be decided between listing or not commercial components in a new website extensions.joomla.com"

The Joomla! Forum™

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