Sandbox

On a site note, Amy, I take great offence at your insinuation of collusion regarding the editors of JED. It may or may not have occured to you that Mosets have a product which is in direct competition with my own. It would make good business sense if I were to favour negative reviews of their products, but I don't do that because that's not what Joomla Extension Directory editors are about. Conversely, none of Phil Taylors products clash with my own and I have no personal bones to pick with him. I have only spoken briefly to him but I've seen and heard a lot of good stuff about his software and I believe him to be an excellent addition to the Joomla Community. Why on earth wouldn't we want his products to be praised?

Hell of a way to stay firmly rooted on my ignore-list, Amy.

Vimes -

You are wrong to think I insinuated any such thing. In fact, repeatedly I indicated the honestly and dedication of the team.

Transparency of process is the only thing that will protect Joomla! *from* suggestions of impropriety. If these processes are kept away from the community, people can accuse us of these things I listed.

I am stating the obvious and you are taking it as a personal attack.

It does indeed hurt my feelings to be on your ignore-list. I think you are a neat guy and I would love to be your friend. But, if being your friend means I am not free to do and say what I believe is good for Joomla!, then Vimes, that is the price I am going to have to pay. Sadly.

I think what you guys are doing is amazing. Joomla! has blossomed and grown because of the extensions directory that makes it so very easy for community members to locate and gain access to all kinds of bells and whistles to make their very own copy just what they need. My own daughter who is 17 used your extensions directory last night to pick a calendar, a site map and a Google map extension. All within one hour's time, she had these things located, downloaded and configured on her very own copy of Joomla!.

Please - don't kill the messenger. Read my post again. Copy anything below that you found offensive and show me - teach me - how to communicate in a way that I am able to share my concerns and still support you because, dammit, you guys deserve that support.

Vimes, I am sorry that I hurt and offended you. It is the very last thing I want to do. I care very much for this community and I care very much for Joomla! and I care very much about the editors and I appreciate what you are all doing. Transparency of process will protect us -- that is all I am after.

Amy

Edit - adding link to post < http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg619906 >

Gosh, Amy. I really think you better just say that you stuck your foot in your mouth and call it that. The second sentence in the wikipedia page you linked to about "collusion" says:[quote="wikipedia entry on collusion"]"collusion" takes place within an industry when rival companies cooperate for their mutual benefit.[/quote]I'm not sure you could be any clearer about what you were insinuating. If that was in fact NOT what you were trying to say then at least back out gracefully.

As a semi-retired founding member of the JED Editorial Team, I continue to wish that the community would defend their editors! You can't imagine the stuff that they have had to put up with since its creation. As you say, the JED has effectively raised the level of Joomla from hobbyists to a logical solution for website creation and maintenance. Woudn't it be awesome if we would love using it rather than criticising it? Alas, this appears to be a flaw in humans not code. 

OH.     

Graham - I am SOOOOO Glad you are calling me on the carpet on this. Here's my complete text:

Here's the danger I get concerned about when I hear of the "editorial process." We don't protect the editors and we do not protect Joomla! because the process is not transparent and the criteria is subjective.

Regardless of how stupid or silly or off-topic we might feel community comments are, representatives of Joomla! must be "hands off." There are mechanisms for the developer to respond directly to any comment submitted; let them take care of their customer base. Part of making it in a commercial environment is managing expectations. It is their job, not ours.

Open source is essentially restructuring technology market. Commercial aspects of this market are subject to US laws because the servers sit on US soil. We must be very careful that we do nothing that appears like market collusion < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion > or gives an appearance of violating anti-trust laws < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust >.

We are going to have to trust our community. I'll be honest. I'd look at this particular comment and when I saw the flaming emotion, I would discount this opinion greatly. But, it is my right as a consumer to have complete confidence that all resources have been made available to me to allow for my own filters to be used in the decision-making process.

Jenny makes the case for access to information. Look how she was able to use information to draw her own conclusion. And, Brian has made his own conclusion having information available. Let's make that available to everyone.

We have to build in transparency to this process. You guys are really doing amazing work; without the extensions directory, Joomla! would be a hobbyist toy. Now, let's make the adjustments needed to get completely out of the way of this market and watch it explode. I have complete confidence in you guys and in Joomla! and in our third party developers, but mostly I believe in our community and our ability to use information to lift up what is good and right and appropriate.

Here is the situation:
Someone submitted a comment that was rejected.
He logs on and asks why.
He logs on a couple of weeks later, says he did it two times, again, and it was rejected twice again.
He is obviously upset and accuses Joomla! of improprieties.

Question: How do we BEST protect Joomla! against accusations of market collusion or of violating anti-trust laws?

Answer: Through transparency of process.

Even the mere mention of the words drew a response like one might expect from security guards at an airport with the mention of terrorism! What protects us from this being accused in a court of law?

This is what I said about the Joomla! editors in that thread:

Quote from: Vimes on December 27, 2006, 06:32:06 PM
we work extremely hard to ensure that the information that is on the server is accurate, honest and above reproach.

Knowing who is involved as editors, I am quite certain and 100% confident this is true.

As our community grows and all of the sudden everyone doesn't know who Vimes is or who Ot2sen is, and why we should obviously "trust them," transparency will be required to maintain community confidence in the process and, more importantly, protect Joomla!.

You guys are doing a fabulous job and it is INCREDIBLE the distance traveled in less than one year's time. You *are* getting there and I am quite certain these ideas are things you talk about all of the time!

These are honest people. I am completely confident within a week's time this will be resolved.

OK? Lot of people on this thread who care, most of all the moderators. Let's wait for the explanation.

Vimes -

Thanks to all of you on the editorial team for what you do for our community for free - I mean that. Your patience and grace is much appreciated.

Amy

give these people who work free of charge for hours and hours and hours the time they needed to respond.

The reason that this topic is drawing so much emotional response is because there is not transparency of process and people are taking suggestions as personal attacks.

I do trust these people. That is why I want to make certain we protect them and we protect Joomla! with a feedback system from our community that is open and no one is able to accuse anyone of impropriety.

I hope - I dearly HOPE that this clarifies my point - and I sincerely appreciate being called on to the carpet ANYTIME someone doesn't understand what I am saying.

Please let me know if this helps.
Amy

The last thread was closed, why are you trying to continue it now...

The JED editors were being attacked and you decided to join in, yet again, to another one of *these* threads.. leave them alone and you might get treated better and cause less problems. Why did the editors need YOUR help to explain THEIR actions.. you do you see the problem...

brad wrote:The last thread was closed, why are you trying to continue it now...

I was accused of some pretty nasty things, Brad, and Vimes indicated another thread should be started, so I did. Read his post.

brad wrote:The JED editors were being attacked and you decided to join in, yet again, to another one of *these* threads.. leave them alone and you might get treated better and cause less problems. Why did the editors need YOUR help to explain THEIR actions.. you do you see the problem...

Brad, Vimes, all of you who I am now taking on all by myself -

Listen up. We are a community. People need to be heard. We have to treat one another with respect. We have to create systems that are so transparent that you could have your enemies run them!

It gets down to this - if people question process or policy they are labeled enemy combatants. That is not right. I am not your enemy and I do not want to be your enemy. I want Joomla! to be strengthened. We might want to look at some of our processes so that we can prevent this type of accusation from happening. Speaking up is not a bad thing and that should not be taken so emotionally or so personally!

We can look at Joomla! and we CAN make improvements and we CAN talk about this openly without silencing anyone who disagrees. We can do that and we can remain friendly about it and we can get better and better and better!

I did not side against the Joomla! editors. I tried to bring peace to a thread that was getting emotional and people on *all sides* were throwing stones. Can we not walk through our problems and resolve them peacefully? Can we not question what we do? Is only 100% blind loyalty valued? Do we have to turn our back on people who feel they are not being heard? We cannot help them?

You know who I am and you know where my loyalties are and you know where my heart is. In spite of how it is received, I still try to find a way to carefully say what I think needs to be said. I did not raise this issue, it was here. I merely gave my perspective as did others.

How do we protect Joomla! and our editorial staff GOD BLESS THEIR SWEET SOULS from accusations of impropriety without creating transparency of process?

I am so very very very sorry that this is taken offensively. I cannot begin to tell you how much I would LOVE to be off of the "ignore" list and invited to the "friend" list. It just seems that you are asking too much from me to get there.

Amy

How do we protect Joomla! and our editorial staff GOD BLESS THEIR SWEET SOULS from accusations of impropriety without creating transparency of process?

It's nothing that you need to worry about. They are mature, grown up people who can handle things like this themselves.

..but honestly, you are making people ignore you, you can see that, right? Trying to bring peace to threads is not something that will get you liked, perhaps that motivation is why you are constantly getting into arguments and emotional discussions.

Brad -

I do need to worry about Joomla! - I am a member of this community and it's my responsibility. Go watch Eben's video http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ,33/p,239/ especially as it relates to this particular topic.

Now, let's not make this personal. I don't want to get down and dirty with you.  I never have!

I am talking about process. Do you see value in creating a more transparent process with the feedback system?

lol...geesh! Silliness. What is it that you always say? Stop the sandbox antics? Criminy! Geesh! You'd think I said your baby was ugly!

Amy

I need to apologize to the JED editors. And, I hate to apologize. It is humiliating for a prideful person, like myself. You'd think as much as I mess up that I would learn to either quit messing up or that I would get used to apologizing! I am 45 years old and neither is true.

I am sorry for the directness of my message and I am sorry that my message discouraged our editors – especially since the words were so very pointed and difficult that it actually brought in our semi-retired editor, Graham, a man who I consider to be a huge superstar, someone of deep integrity, and a person who I very much admire. I thank you, Graham for what you said.

Discouraging people who work so hard for so long for free in an open source community is nearly a criminal act. It is horrible. It is even harder to apologize since I recognize the negative impact my words have had on very good people.

Over this past year, using Joomla, working with and learning from you, I have started to observe how open source is making an enormously positive change in our world. I believe our work here is important. To me, this is more than software.

So, as I wander these forums, and I read about this and that issue, I am a bit of a dangerous person – I am a believer! And, something in me cares that we protect Joomla! so that it can do what it is supposed to do for the people of the world. IMO, some of our processes are a bit controlling and “over protective" and we need to get out of the way and entrust the community with Joomla! so that it can explode like it is destined to do.

You have accomplished very much and I am humbled by and appreciative of your contributions. I sincerely thank you for Joomla! and I thank you for the Joomla! Extensions Directory and for taking KenMcD's list and making it live and, in turn, for encouraging other third party developers to come and learn Joomla! and contribute their extensions. I know the good you have done and I appreciate the rippling and positive impact your work has and will continue to have, world-wide.

And, so, I am very sorry for discouraging and upsetting you with my comments. Please forgive me.

Amy

Good enuf for me, Amy. Thanks for the apology. I'm sure this will go a long way to mend fences.

Bottom line for me is that inflamatory big-business terms like collusion and anti-trust have little place on these forums. We're all in it for the common good, this is the spirit of open-source that you have mentioned and it is very strong in this community. My experience with open-source suggests that the LAST place to point fingers should be at the people doing the hard work of keeping a project running. The only people that deserve this type of scrutiny are the occasional sketchy 3PD out to make a quick buck or newbie forum flamers. BUT, check this important difference to common logic: a GREAT community will take this stuff in stride, chocking it up to human nature, and allow the goodness of the project to morph around and through these aberrations with grace and elegance, not in the form of more flamage or finger-pointing.

I continue my "plea to the community for an unprecedented level of courteousness".