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Hi All

For me, commercial Extensionens won't fit to the Slogan: "Because Open Source Matters"!

What's your opinion?

I think the official Extensions Directory on Joomla.org should only include Free Components, Modules and Mambots. Otherwise the Spirit of Open Source gets lost and everyone wanna try to make some money with his Extension. - And that's really not the best way to push the Developement of a Community like Joomla.

Discussions's open...

When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price.

see the GNU General Public License: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html#SEC2

So first of all Open Source don't means generally free software. But on the other hand, you are right. I think there is a bit of a overflow of commercial software on the extensions directory. Maybe there should be a separation into free and commercial software. So that everyone can decide easily, where to search for comps, modules and mambots. In the "free extensions directory" or the "commercial extensions directory"

what do you think and BTW than you for opening this interesting discussion.

greets,

christian lill 

Interestingly In Joomla weekly News I show all the nes extensions of the week and I seperate them into separate lists the Commercial and free ones.

If you look at the issues you will see the free of charge extensions far outnumber the paid for extenssions.

If I remember correctylin the last few weeks there have been on avergae 6 pages of free extensions and only 1 page (if that) of paid fpr extensions

Great. But as I said, it would be fine, if you could browse in the hole extensions directory, distinguishing between free and commercial extensions. It would fasten the search process and make it easier to find the "ideal" extension for somebody how don`t want spend money or can not effort it and others who can. As I said, I don`t think it is a question of ethical principles but maybe of better organization.

all the best,

christian lill

ideenweber wrote:Great. But as I said, it would be fine, if you could browse in the hole extensions directory, distinguishing between free and commercial extensions.

You can already do that via the "advanced search function" 
http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/


Edit: Well, at least search extensions of different licence types

Hi Fletsch,

We indeed have room for all kind of licenced extensions in favour of the users of Joomla!.
Lots of the Commercial Extensions actually comes with an open source code that you as customer will be able to modify and adapt for your excact needs.

Open Source is not about a price tag, but about you being able to see and modify source code.
The users more like benefit from Commercial extensions being listed. Often other developers are then encouraged to create a free extension with similar functionality. This will force the Commercial developer to improve their extensions, and in the end we get better extensions with more functionality included 

Some approx. stats:
75 % of all listed extensions are released as GNU GPL
13 % are having a Commercial license - but lots of them still provide open source code.
12 % are Other open source / Free license, Donationware, PHP, BSD

I voted for free and commercial.
But i agree with the need to navigate at JED with a more fine tune categorized extensions. This may be a software issue (for the component authors), but now we can access JED:

- normal way --- categorization predefined
- advanced search

I would like an alternative way of browsing:
- Categories filtered by License (maybe a personal setting ?)

This is the same old argument dressed up in a different frock.

I work 7 days a week, often in excess of 14 hours a day on my software. My commercial code is 99% open source, 1% encoded to protect genuine license holders from freeloaders and thieves. As a result I can afford to spend time improving my software, something I wouldn't be able to do if it were not commercial.

What a lot of Open Source Evangelists seem to forget is that many of the free extensions are provided by commercial developers. For example I list 6 items, four of which are freebies, including one item that has been downloaded a whopping 15,000 times and is generally considered invaluable to many users. I give them away because they cost almost nothing to maintain and host when considered against the larger costs of my site, but I wouldn't be able to afford it if my development wages didn't pay for them.

It's commercial naivety like that of this thread starter that helps prevent good OS products like Joomla from realising their true potential as professional frameworks for websites and I'm grateful that most people in our community aren't this ignorant.


Oh, I could crush a grape!                                                <-- one for the older Brits


Ok, now that the hook is firmly in my mouth I'll shut up.

Personally I think it would be a mistake to make it so that extensions were listed by default filtered by license. One of the great strengths of JED is that it treats all extensions the same, regardless of license. Anything that impacted this by default would damage JED and all the people who use it.

In my opinion all components should be included. In the advanced search you have already the possibility to filter by licence.

What's much more annoying is, that there is no way to order them by various requirements. Not only by the rating but also alphabetical or by licence etc.
Especially the reviews are complicate to use for making a decision. It's allways ordered by how much people find it usefull and don't care that this review is nearly one year old and in the meantime new versions were released. I think there should be the possibility to let the visitor order the reviews by date at least.

With as much effort the shareware, trialware and demoware products would be removed from the software libraries. JED would be so one-sided - it's no good.

Vimes wrote:What a lot of Open Source Evangelists seem to forget is that many of the free extensions are provided by commercial developers.
Personally I think it would be a mistake to make it so that extensions were listed by default filtered by license.

Golden rule: don't attack what you don't understand or who you do not know!

I don't think I was the target of all the text but some part may be:
I've talked about a personal filter, not a JED filter on submission. See the way advanced search works now, but with extra sorting options.
Commercial is fine, everybody have to pay the bills!
I receive a lot of request from our support group users for an "extension to make this or that", sometimes they ask for a commercial solution others for a free file (advanced users prefer commercial solutions with future developments, but scholars and first time users they prefer free solutions).
It was a fine solution, when the extension could be counted by 3 digits, and each category had less then 2 pages.
Not now!

At JED the search function is a limited one, so I think the next step is to bring a more elaborate ordering solution... so we can find the perfect extension!

We need commercial extensions at JED, but the commercial developers should have also a "code of honor" (or a way of contribute to the community).
Some give away free docs and extensions, others don't. Some they don't give a **** to OpenSource movement either.
Joomla its not just another market opportunity, its a community... although you are allowed to earn money.
We cannot end with a OpenSource Joomla and everybody trying to earn the bucks on it.
This will bring some problems, specially when a feature now only available as an extension, would face a possibility to be on the Joomla Core.

Not a major problem by now... but say, when we reach an extension number of 4000... problems will be more clear... wait and see!

Hope that nobody wants to kill the "Goose that Laid the Golden Egg"

We already have a place for F/OS licensed extensions, joomlacode.org, and the extensions team is doing a nice work (have you thought about managing 1500 directory entries with their respective comments and updates?).

You should be more worried about non free documentation...

Fletsch wrote:For me, commercial Extensionens won't fit to the Slogan: "Because Open Source Matters"!

You might want to actually read the definition from the Open Source Initiative as to what Open Source really means. The very first of ten criteria guarantees liberty ("free") in selling the software.

1. Free Redistribution

The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources. The license shall not require a royalty or other fee for such sale.

Open source software can absolutely be commercial. In fact, it only makes sense. We do not ask open source developers to take a vow of poverty to serve us! We just ask them to trust the community with viewing, learning from, reusing and redistributing their hard work.

Now, click the "Support Joomla!" link in the upper right and give.  Like it or not, it takes money to get by in the world, even for those who develop open source solutions. Silliness!

horus_68 wrote:I don't think I was the target of all the text

You weren't the target of any of the text, I simply forgot to hit the relevant button when replying to the OP.

ibnhafsun wrote:You should be more worried about non free documentation...

believe-me... it's my hobbie!
And i'm capable to work at 2 problems at same time!

I totally agree, what you said above horus_68!

At JED the search function is a limited one, so I think the next step is to bring a more elaborate ordering solution... so we can find the perfect extension!

We need commercial extensions at JED, but the commercial developers should have also a "code of honor" (or a way of contribute to the community).

and by the way I  don`t have anything against commercial solutions (as most of us). It is a common misinterpretation, of what Open Source means, what started the discussion, maybe it is time to switch over to the more 'practical' aspects now - to what horus_68 is summarizing with

extra sorting options

  .

The topic is about commercial extensions and "open source." If improvements to JED are desired, perhaps a new topic should be started. I have no problem figuring out what is commercial, though. These choices are clearly labeled "Commercial License" whether you are looking at the search results or you have drilled down into the item page.

I do not see this as a problem, at all, just a misunderstanding of what open source is - or someone who just wanted to stir things up. 

AmyStephen wrote:The topic is about commercial extensions and "open source." If improvements to JED are desired, perhaps a new topic should be started.

ideenweber wrote:maybe it is time to switch over to the more 'practical' aspects now - to what horus_68 is summarizing with extra sorting options

done that already here:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,152710.0.html

There are also other topics (hope someone join them toghether!)

What a lot of Open Source Evangelists seem to forget is that many of the free extensions are provided by commercial developers. For example I list 6 items, four of which are freebies,

Very true.

Open Source is not business-free, but rather a more honest, enjoyable and successful way to do business.

More giving, less taking but still paying the bills.

horus_68 wrote:We need commercial extensions at JED, but the commercial developers should have also a "code of honor" (or a way of contribute to the community).
Some give away free docs and extensions, others don't. Some they don't give a **** to OpenSource movement either.
Joomla its not just another market opportunity, its a community... although you are allowed to earn money.
We cannot end with a OpenSource Joomla and everybody trying to earn the bucks on it.
This will bring some problems, specially when a feature now only available as an extension, would face a possibility to be on the Joomla Core.

Not a major problem by now... but say, when we reach an extension number of 4000... problems will be more clear... wait and see!

THANKS. That was the main Issue/Question of my first post.

Maybe I used the wrong words (my english isn't the best)

Greetings

We each need to contribute to the community.

PS: if you take a look at the ads showed here you will see some commercial extensions (components, templates...). Those ads are helping to pay the bills too.

Hi,

I'm sorry to butt in. But I do find this topic rather interesting. Overall, I agree with Vimes. Because looking at us, as commercial developers (we have always been from the start we graduated from University), the argument is the same.

But one thing I have to point out there, after walking around this industry (software dev.) in both open source community, half-half, fully commercial; what you need are really, really good people churning out good stuff. And the best quality ones, interms of the software itself and customer support, comes from commercial developers who can keep up to date with their development, reward themselves according to  what they feel is their worth (in my team, I've got dudes from Imperial College London, University College London, University of California at Berkeley, University of Chicago; who left their jobs and/or spend their time/blood/sweat for this), and of course, pay the bills.

It'll be such a shame of Open Source totally shun people like us. Who I believe share the same and common goal of developing good stuff and bringing good all around.

I don't know, maybe it's just me.

Fletsch wrote:For me, commercial Extensionens won't fit to the Slogan: "Because Open Source Matters"!

I feel both extensions are required, just my opinion .... 

Ish

Open Source does matter, however extension developers often have earn money with their extensions in order to make a living.

How many of you have supported a free extension developer with your donations? Not many, I bet.


Best regards,

machadoug wrote:Open Source does matter, however extension developers often have earn money with their extensions in order to make a living.
How many of you have supported a free extension developer with your donations? Not many, I bet.
Best regards,

Not a lot, I can tell from experience

I can second that.

Im with you Ish..

we def need both

I'm happy to pay developers for their product.. its not even a lot when you consider it. I pay as much for a bottle of wine as I do for a great extension. I'm also very grateful for the free extensions too. Made my life with Joomla a lot easier. But where i get hung up is the ease of use of the product, for both. Its a help to find the reviews but it doesn't always give the degree of skill required. And that may be difficult to rate.

I don't know that sorting out the extensions would be that great a idea, as opposed to having them mixed but defined as is.

How many people would you know that would say.. oh lets go buy an extension today over going to the free ones first? I think it makes good marketing sense to have the paid with the free. At least for me, I can give consideration to purchasing even when I wasnt in that frame of mind, if its under my nose. And that makes it a  good 'open' market place.

Then again, Im new to this world..

Developers gotta eat, even if they dont sleep.

oh yeah.. PS... I will be paying everyone of the developers whos products I have used, when I launch the business properly and income comes in.. what goes around comes around

alledia wrote:

What a lot of Open Source Evangelists seem to forget is that many of the free extensions are provided by commercial developers. For example I list 6 items, four of which are freebies,

Very true.
Open Source is not business-free, but rather a more honest, enjoyable and successful way to do business.
More giving, less taking but still paying the bills.

Just for the argumentation point, see this developer, Elearningforce http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/ (choose them as an example just because the updates to several of this extension today, nothing else)

- This developer listed at JED 35 extensions... all of them commercial. Not a single one free!
I don't know them, and what I'm sayng is just an example. Has persons they may contribute a lot to the opensource Joomla and community. But as a business... they are just a business. Not my way of though what should be an open source. Where is the contribution to the community that allow them to make publicity, completely free, at JED?
35 extensions, some they you will find someone with 100 commercial ones.

Where is the line?
We need some draw line here, is just so much work from JED people in exchange of ZERO contributions!
JED should then put a price on the commercial projects: a minimum of 1 component free for each pack of ten listed or so.
Sure it will be ways to create a lousy free component, not update them, and such. But we need a code of honor, don't we? If it fails let's charge them with money expenses for listing more than X commercial extensions. Those who contribute with part of their labor will not be charged!
"Free for all at JED"... we can't do this way any more.
Or else we loose the sense of community, and we all be a simple geek community, where the money is the primary goal

In a community the first goal should be achieve objectives with helping each others. Money can only be the second goal (not a minor one).
If we loose the first goal of sight... then we will not be any different from major software companies...!

I'm not an Open Source Evangelist, but I don't want to be an "stupid dreamer geek", with others profiting from my work giving nothing back!

Some day, some time, we need to draw a line... or we will loose the community

Horus -

Please read the front article Building a Stronger Community where we are asked to email our comments on this subject to [email protected].

Kind regards,
Amy