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I had another repeat experience today--a friend was genuinely interested in exploring Joomla!, but gave up after 10 minutes of hunting and poking through the main http://www.joomla.org page to find installation instructions.

If we want to attract new users to this awesome CMS, the main page needs to jump out at you immediately with a single page that contains the latest download (just click 'here' and it downloads... don't send me to the 'forge!), installation instructions, and a quick-start/administrator's guide.

I realize some of these documents are currently under development, but once you can find the documentation that already exists, installation isn't difficult.

May I suggest installing a big button on the main joomla site that links to a dedicated page containing everything a new user needs to know to get started?

End users will follow the path of least resistance...

Thanks!
kwc

There is a big button already, it's up the top called: "Help".

Thanks, Brad. Certainly the help tab is of tremendous value--there's a lot of great information there. But why separate the instructions from the download?

The end user clicks on the "download" link, you see a long list of files available. The help tab goes away. There is no documentation shown in that file list. The documentation is separated from the files. The user goes back to the main screen (probably using the back arrow on his browser)... eventually realizes the help tab contains the documentation. Time wasted--and possibly another frustrated customer.

Imagine this: A single button that says "Get it!". User clicks, new page opens with ONLY a link to the latest version, a direct link to the full installation guide, a quick-start guide, administrator's guide, and end user's guide. The link to the latest version downloads the file instantly instead of redirecting to the Joomlacode list of files.

From personal experience, I've tried to download extensions and templates that are linked on the Joomla! site. Some of them drive me absolutely crazy. Pressing the "download" button takes me to a web site where one has to first find the site's registration link, then hunt through the Remository files to retrieve the one desired, then go to a different section of the web site (often poorly marked) to get the instructions for using the package. Then I discover there are other files required to get an extension to run--of course that is referenced only in the file's "README", which is in a zipped package. Contrast that with going to a single page with everything you need to know to get and install a software package.

My point is this: Many users want instant gratification, and lack the patience to stick around unless something catches them right away. Why not make it very simple for them?

All I know is that we lost another potential Joomla! user, and I felt obligated to pass his experience along with the hope that Joomla! could continue to grow its base. This is the best CMS out there and I'd love to see it continue to thrive.

Just my 2 cents--that's all.

Thank you,
kwc

My personal opinion: If people do not posses the ability to work this simple procedure out themselves, then Joomla is probably not for them. Maybe Google Sites will suit them better.. or something like that.

Brad,
I'm new here. I'm new to Joomla also. I'd think from your response you need a day off.

Obviously from your post count and credentials in your signature you know your stuff but... you could be a little gentler.<grin> If the search for information is obtuse by design the system is flawed. You implied it's some sort of test, of intelligence? of adaptability? or just wanting something so bad you'll jump through hoops? I'm a mod on a different forum with a different subject matter but I can't smirk or give an attitude when someone asks a question. It's not good for the forum or it's members. The new guests and members that come here want something. They want something bad enough that they've left the groups that continue to do things the same way, all the time. They want something so bad that they'll buy all sorts of books, read almost anything related to Joomla, go through piles of tutorials, some good, some not so good in hopes of picking up anything usable to them. By the time hard copy products go through the publishing process something as fluid as Joomla has already moved on. They've come here because Joomla.org is THE source. New guests and members are looking for the newest information at their entry point and level. Not many have the will to go through hundreds of pages of posts for a fragment to solve their immediate concern. If a "search" of the files doesn't yield results, many wouldn't know to ask the question differently. Maybe you need a small or even a large group of moderators just to handle newbie questions. That would leave the "big guns" to deal with the forum users that have moved beyond that point.

I'm not a coder. I haven't wanted to learn how or even dabble at it. There should be a way for others that feel this way to glean information from the discussions on the board, otherwise, why have a board? By the time you've reached the level you operate, you've gone beyond the hand-holding stage. I'm happy for you. Please if you're not in a good mood, let someone else answer a question like that. I don't think the initial comment was a personal attack on you. This really isn't intended to be either. People that have been here for a long period probably wouldn't say anything to you. I'm so new, and in the background as well, that I figured it might as well be me. I just want to learn how to use Joomla to run a couple of sites for myself, not develop a business around it.

BTW, I've read comments that you've made in other posts I've read. I've gleaned something from each of the ones that I could understand. Thank you for that. Dan

I'm sorry you took things that way. I guess I was pretty straight.

Though, the title of this topic is making a statement that I do not personally agree with. I think I can respectfully share my POV on the matter therefore.

BTW, we have over 100 moderators who help out here on the forum. Sadly, we answer the same questions generally, day after day. Do people look at the information that we provide on our sites? Not always. Do we sometimes get frustrated? Yes.

I'll try to be gentler in future, but new users joining up to basically moan and complain about things around here.. demanding either support of changes.. from people who do this as volunteers... it can get a bit frustrating.

brad wrote:My personal opinion: If people do not posses the ability to work this simple procedure out themselves, then Joomla is probably not for them. Maybe Google Sites will suit them better.. or something like that.

Actually... I think he's opting to use Dreamweaver. His site will be much more extensive than the Google ones could support.

It's not about ability. It's about first impressions. A politician wanting to get elected gets his top three messages out at every stump speech. Making the public dig to learn their positions won't get elected. A car salesman doesn't introduce himself and immediately tell a potential buyer, "Everything you want to know about that car is right here in the owner's manual. Why don't you take a couple of hours to read it?" Will that sell cars? It's basic Public Relations.

Oh well... My friend voted with his feet. Perhaps the Joomla! world is better off without him and others 'like' him.

Brad,
Straight is good. I understand the frustration. Thanks for your response. Dan

kwc wrote:Oh well... My friend voted with his feet. Perhaps the Joomla! world is better off without him and others 'like' him.

Or perhaps, rather than demand the people who already work hard enough to bring you free software like Joomla do more, you might like to offer to help, rather than complain.

I won't argue any more, but don't for a moment thing we (I) don't care about new people coming across Joomla. I care, otherwise I wouldn't bother doing what I do. There is a limit though, and we're all doing the best we can.

If you took the time to read some of my past posts, you would know that a redesign of all our site is something we are working on.. but again.. you'll probably complain that I should have made that information easier to find.

If you want to help, help.. if not, don't complain. It takes away for all the great work that so many volunteers do in the community. I'm a nice guy, I really am, but I also have been around for a while, I've been here before.. and I know we'll never keep everyone happy.

Well, we try to be friendly - we warmly welcome new visitors! But, we still have room for improvement.

Brad's right, though. It's very difficult to communicate effectively. Some things that we hoped were very broad targets have been missed. Like the Help button. It seems like an obvious button, once you see it, but, if you don't, then it's obviously not very helpful.

Another link we hoped you might find is inside of the Joomla! Backend Administrator.

Congratulations on choosing Joomla! as your content management system. We hope you are able to create a successful Web site with our program and maybe you will be able to give something back to the community later.

To make your start with Joomla! as smooth as possible, we want to give you some pointers to documentation, common questions and help on securing your server. A good place to start is the Absolute Beginners Guide to Joomla!.

Try that link and see if you find enough material there to keep you out of trouble for awhile.

Now, there is no reason to share with us that your friend voted with his feet. That is his choice. If he's happy, we're happy. We can't really afford to have Brad take time off - he's our forum admin and he does more work than you can imagine. If you think things aren't perfect now, I hate to think what you'd say if Brad were gone.

So, hopefully, you have the information you need to be successful, now, and we can continue to try to make Joomla! more approachable and easier to use and more friendly for everyone.

If I might ask one favor from you in the future - use friendlier titles on your posts! You, too, contribute to the Friendly Level here at Joomla!.

Welcome to Joomla!,
Amy

I've used Jooma! since its inception, so this post was not about my familiarity with the system (although I admit I still struggle and am by no means an expert).

The intent of my original post was simply to recommend this site have one page that captures download, installation, and the basics all at once to ensure we keep those that are interested in trying it out. Criticism was far from my mind when I wrote that, particularly with the incredible amount of dedication and time you've all put into this (for which I am very grateful). I care, too; which was the reason for my suggestion.

Unfortunately, it appears the title of my post stirred up emotions I certainly didn't intend! I guess I didn't choose the title very carefully. I'm sorry for that. I just changed the title of the original post to be more reflective of my intent. The original title was supposed to address the user-friendliness of the site, and had nothing to do with the helpfulness of its members, contributors, moderators, etc. I fear the latter is how the title was interpreted.

AmyStephen: I've found most of the documentation I need. My friend wouldn't have benefited from the link on the Administrator's page since he didn't know how to install it in the first place.

If you want to help, help.. if not, don't complain.

Brad, I sincerely thought I was helping. I'll be much more cautious in the future. Thanks for all you do.

If you have used Joomla! since it's beginnings, and this person was your friend, why didn't you help him find what he needed and encourage him to hang in there? I hope you let him know Joomla! was worth it!

It is such a different approach, I realize, but we are a community, not a company that has revenue to fund improvements. We do not pay for Joomla!. We only have what has been freely offered by the generosity of our members. The percentage of people who give back to the community is honestly quite low and we are unable to get all of the work done. Those who contribute to the project are far more aware of the weaknesses than you might assume. We get frustrated when we can't get all of these things done that we want in place. We volunteer because we do want to be more welcoming to new users. That is one of dozens of improvements we desire. I hope some of that makes sense.

Please do try to help, again. It can take a few tries to learn how to contribute in a way that is actually helpful. There appears to be another Doc Camp coming up. Maybe you could join in that weekend and take a couple of tasks? If you have a couple of years experience already, I am certain your knowledge would be put to good service. It is the cumulation of these little things people do that add up and help our new members.

Please, don't be discouraged. This could be the beginning of you also making a positive difference for the community and we warmly welcome your contributions!

Amy

Just out of curiousity I had a look on some other Open Source project sites. The only one that has a clear beginners section on the homepage is Wordpress (did not check ALL project sites of course ).

See the screenshot, something like that might help the beginners a bit more. Maybe an idea to take in account when the new designs are setup. See the screenie.

Wordpress has a great approach to guiding site users. Thanks, Rob.

Thanks, Amy. I did in fact spend quite a bit of time drafting an email for him with links of example sites, fragments of discussions regarding differences between content/sections/menus, links to various manuals, bug fixes, etc. Perhaps I gave him too much. And yes, I am continuing to recommend Joomla! and attempting to convince him this is a good solution.

A couple of years ago I posted a brief section on my personal web site as well for friends who expressed interest, based on the 1.0.x version: http://www.morsel.info/ (click on "Joomla tips" on the left). That was easier than sending emails everytime the discussion came up. I didn't achieve the level of simplicity I truly wanted, and the site is now outdated with the release of 1.5, but at that time I could point someone to my site and get them off to a good start.

Ultimately, of course, it's his call, and everyone has different thresholds of patience. I realize a commercial solution (or even another open source one) is better suited for some. Not everyone needs vanilla ice cream. Some like Moose Tracks.

I recently installed Ubuntu (Linux) on a personal desktop and found the experience to be much more pleasant than previous attempts with earlier Linux releases--almost as good (or even better!) than installing Windows XP. So the open source world is becoming more user-friendly as a whole, naturally due to the contributions of those with a focus on making the experience pleasant for the end user.

I have contributed in the past, mostly in an attempt to answer questions that arise on the forums. I promise to do more.

RobInk: The example you brought forward is a good one. Thanks.

That is a really nice section on your site devoted to helping people also discover Joomla!. I am humbled by that. It is very touching. What it says to me is that you really do care and you are honestly concerned that we don't lose people who are interested in using Joomla! -- just because it's hard to figure out how to get there.

As Brad indicated, there is a site redesign underway. Perhaps you would be interested in viewing some ideas when the time comes up to see what your impressions are. Maybe you would even share these ideas with your friend and see if he thinks it would have been helpful. We could use your help.

My biggest problem with what you have had to say, though, is that I love both vanilla ice cream *and* Moose Tracks. Sadly, that's probably nothing anyone here can help me with, but I do ask that you not talk about such food items, again, because it does make it just that much more difficult to avoid.

Please forgive frustration. It's not the message. It's not the messenger. It's limited resources and a strong desire to be friendly and welcoming to new people that causes frustration to hear what we already know to be true. We have much room for improvement!
Amy

Thanks, Amy. Your positive outlook and welcoming attitude are encouraging--thank you for that.

I would be interested in viewing some ideas for the new site design when the time comes. I promise to word my feedback carefully.

Now I'm getting hungry for that tub of Moose Tracks. That's not necessarily a good thing.

RobInk wrote:Just out of curiousity I had a look on some other Open Source project sites. The only one that has a clear beginners section on the homepage is Wordpress (did not check ALL project sites of course ).

See the screenshot, something like that might help the beginners a bit more. Maybe an idea to take in account when the new designs are setup. See the screenie.

Going off of that and what kwc said, here's a page on wordpress that I think incorporates the idea:
http://wordpress.org/download/

We’ve got information on installation and upgrading if you need it. If the admin looks a little scrambled after you upgrade just make sure to refresh the page in your browser (F5 on Windows) to reload and get the new styling.

But something I think is important to note is that Wordpress and Joomla! are geared towards different types of users. I believe Joomla! is geared to the more advanced (than Wordpress) web developers/designers so there is sort of an "unspoken" expectation that people are able to find support/help/documentation on the site without as many glaring notices.