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TomT, rjs had concluded having his say,

Now we have the issues under control, best wishes and onward movement.

so reopening wounds several hours later was perhaps not wise.  Rick actually made a good point, and its one I want clarified please - is this fundraising campaign directed at fundraising to assist the ongoing development of Joomla and pay associated costs, or is it designed to gather funds to send developers on overseas trips?  I understood the official post to mean that funds were needed for the project, for expo costs and the other associated costs of running an organisation.  Yet, the forum seems to be filling up with requests to pay up so Johan can travel to the US.  Why just Johan? The core code is the result of collaborative efforts and every phase of development sees one or a few working much harder than some others, such is the nature of the ebb and flow of open source.  Why not Rey too? stingrey is a tireless worker and has been for several years. And, and...  Heck, is the next suggestion going to be that we all fundraise to send the entire team?????

There is a reason the core developers are called a team. I note there have not been any comments from the core team on whether they all want to go to the US or not, or whether it is necessary for promotion of Joomla for Johan to be there. Are the others not capable of managing the stand without him? 

rjs has concerns and I share them. I thought the official announcement about how funds were to be used meant that is how they will be used.  If this has changed, I think everyone needs to know.

Mod note: Post split from: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,50533.0.html

To address your concerns, please see the budget page here: http://www.joomla.org/content/view/1016/83/ Any changes to the budget will be made on that page and/or announced on the forums.

There is no conspiracy or secret club. Funds are used to:

Your donations help us by financially supporting developer conferences, presentation materials and travel expenses for things like the LinuxWorld Expo, as well as any other expenses that might come up as we develop and promote the award winning product we all love.

Thanks for your donations, support here on the forums or in any other way towards Joomla, they are much appreciated. Together we are looking forward.

Not sure if this is the correct place to post so please move it if necessary.

To answer a comment elsewhere the LinuxWorld Expos can hardly be called developer conferences. They are more opportunities to meet both new and prospective users.

If anyone is  looking to attend a developer focussed event then you should consider (in no specific order)

Fosdem www.fosdem.org/
LinuxTag www.linuxtag.org/
UKUUG Summer Conference http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2006/
DebConf http://debconf6.debconf.org/
LinuxConf Australia http://conf.linux.org.au
OSCON http://conferences.oreillynet.com/oscon/
BarCamp http://barcamp.org/
7º Fórum Internacional Software Livre http://fisl.softwarelivre.org
MySQL Users Conference http://www.mysqluc.com
GUADEC http://2006.guadec.org
New York PHP Conference http://www.nyphpcon.com
EuroOSCON http://conferences.oreillynet.com/euos2006

Brad, I never said there was a conspiracy or secret club and I thought I had made it quite clear that I had read the official statement.
However, I do not have time to spend a lot of time on these forums and lately everytime I have popped in there has been yet another request by someone on one of your teams for money to send Johan to the US. 

Please do not take this as me being opposed to Johan going, but as there are so MANY posts that appear to be asking for funds just for him, I was seeking clarity on just what this fundraising is for.

I have previously posted with suggestions on how to approach community fundraising as a long-term effort because, believe me, its easy to get the ball rolling with a lot of pushing for money, but much harder to keep the funds coming through steadily. My concern is that this huge effort to get Johan to the US will be over when he goes, so what happens then - dozens more, "please give" posts? More threads filling up with the need to send another developer half way around the world? Donor fatigue is a very real thing.

BTW - I am not sure what the purpose was in splitting my post away from the thread. The comments I made were in relation to other posts in the thread and dont make much sense when removed from its context.

There has been crossed wires in here Lynne.

There has been no official mandate from the core to anyone to
raise funds for Johan to go anywhere.

Fundraising by people in their own personal time are genuinely well-intentioned but we, the Core Team, have not sought any specific fund-raising for such activity.

Somewhere this got lost in translation but there's no harm done, as the energy demonstrated is commendable albeit not in any way officially sanctioned.

Since the split from Mambo, as you know, there have been many challenges for the team and the community to deal with.  We are still we "nippers" in terms of project maturity.

As we grow further there is more need for the recipe of people, process, purpose to be refined.  I think we can all agree that there's a way to go but in the end we all want the same thing.

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

Very valid points you raise Peter. Such a shame as Elpie has said that the original thread has been closed as there were many valuable points being raised there that need to be discussed (and people obviously want to discuss them) but as Elpie says taken out of context from the rest of the discussion they look kind of lost and lose much of their meaning.

Sorry about the post split, but that last thread had degenerated. I was hoping to 'save' Elpie's well thought out and intentioned post. Since then, the thread starter requested it be closed anyway.

Any suggestions to keep everyone happy? I had hoped the link back to 'that' thread would have been enough.

As noted by the others on the Core team, any officially sanctioned fundraising efforts are for the benefit of the Project as a Whole and should and is never specifically targetted to benefit any specific individual.

While the enthusiasm and the thought behind any initiatives are appreciated, we always advocate that they are done on the basis that it be done for the Totality of the Project. 

Also while all and any fundraising efforts are appreciated, it would be highly appreciated that before global fundraising efforts be undertaken, it be discussed with the Project Core members.

Nah, no suggestions Brad - the "topic" of that thread was switching between a discussion on advertising and fundraising for Johan anyway. People will start another thread or three if they have specific issues to discuss.

Thanks for the responses guys

The problem, as I see it, is that the word, "team" is widely used and it can be difficult for people to distinguish between an official stance and the positions being stated by people who appear to be representing a team.  When people who are part of a formal Joomla team are saying, "we are doing..." in such a way that it can be interpreted as "the team is doing" it is next to impossible to ascertain if they are representing an official viewpoint or just their own. Forum users who are here all the time probably see vastly more posts and have a clearer idea of what is going on but when time permits fewer visits and this, what I now know to be private, donation call keeps popping up all over the place it is very difficult to know if it is officially sanctioned or not.

I don't know how this "send Johan to the US" campaign thinks the money donated for this purpose will be identified amongst the donations, but if others are also misled into thinking this is a genuine, sanctioned campaign, and donate for that purpose, it could leave OSM in an awkward situation if those funds are not used for that purpose.

If everyone on the team was singing from the same songbook there would not be any confusion.

Edit: as I was writing, Rey's post came in. It raises the issue of how "team" is interpreted by the average forum user. Ray says, "As noted by the others on the team..." - now, I know what team he is referring to, but in the wider context everyone who is a member of any team is seen as being a representative of the wider Joomla team. If a doc, moderation, or some other team member says, "we are doing this" people have no idea of who the "we" is and can assume that it refers to the entire Joomal crew. Just a thought...

Elpie wrote:Edit: as I was writing, Rey's post came in. It raises the issue of how "team" is interpreted by the average forum user. Ray says, "As noted by the others on the team..." - now, I know what team he is referring to, but in the wider context everyone who is a member of any team is seen as being a representative of the wider Joomla team. If a doc, moderation, or some other team member says, "we are doing this" people have no idea of who the "we" is and can assume that it refers to the entire Joomal crew. Just a thought...

I can understand that this more liberal use of terminology may cause some misunderstanding.
Though not exactly sure what the best way would be to clarify the matter.


Below is a quick guide to the terminology used - mostly for those unfamiliar with it.

Generally when we have used the word Joomla! team we have referred to the `Core Team` which is responsible for the overall management of the whole Joomla! `Project`.

We use the terminology `Working Group` member to refer to non-core members of the Joomla! `Project`. 
`Working Groups` being support groups that are part of the Joomla! `Project` and are led by a member(s) of the `Core Team`. 
http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/13/53/

In terms of `Official` correspondance, communiques and directives, these only ever come from the `Core Team` who are charged with the responsibility of managing the Joomla! `Project`.

Some corporate and private company managements have found that full disclosure of all company finances have lead to increased participation, understanding, and motivation by the rank and file employees (the Joomla users).

One company like this I dealt with when I was an investment advisor was a pension administration company. This private company posted the monthly budget, income, and expenses on the employee lounge bulletin board. Full disclosure. All employee (Joomla users) concern over financial matters was gone. The employees were now privy to and a part of the financial well-being of the company. The employees were far more involved in the financial well-being of the company after this full-disclosure policy was instituted. They could see the results of their contributions to the financial health of the company.

The analogy with Joomla would be that all Joomla users would be privy to and a part of the budgetary process when full disclosure is instituted. Right now a monetary contibution to "Joomla" is black hole. The only feedback a contributor has as to the use of his hard-earned money is vague descriptions of where the money is used.

The implementation of this policy would require the forward-thinking vision by some management person at the top of the management pyramid. Given that Joomla is "managed" by a bunch of coders with limited management knowledge or experience it is highly unlikely that such a progressive policy as this would ever be implemented (funny, I saw this over 20 years ago). It would further involve the average joomla user in the budgetary issues and consequently the financial burdens.

Please understand that I am just another non-coder with years of management experience and that I understand that I am probably overstepping my bounds by having the audacity to tell a coder how to manage an open source project.
Please accept my apologies for injecting this silly idea into the Joomla management mix.
I do understand that non-coders have little worth in the Joomla project.
This is the obvious but unstated reason for the non-coders to be leaving the core team (infograf768, vavroom, and now brian).

The smartest persion (or most the effective manager) is one who knows what they do not know.
(and listens to people who do know)
I know I am not a coding expert.
Do the coders know they are not management experts?
Obviously no.
To a person with some experience in the management area the management mis-steps are laughable.

The non-coders have been leaving the core team out of (my guess) frustration with having no input to the management issues (or should I say the clueless lapses).

The bottom line:
You want more involvement by the average Joomla user in the Joomla project finances?
Involve the Joomla users by full disclosure.
Lots of noise about disclosing Joomla finances; months later - no info.
Joomla users who know the financial issues and the financial details are far more likely to contribute to the solution.

But then again, I am not a coder, and "Anyone who is not a coder is $h!t"
And because of this it is likely nothing will happen.

Oh well . . . off to do something where I can contribute and actually have an effect . . . 
 

Hey Hey I'm not a coder either...

You make some good suggestions Ken, and let me promise you we are working on them. You can look forward to full disclosure on finances, just as soon as we get time to collate and publish all the information.

However while you are welcome to your opinion, the point you make about people leaving the Core Team out of frustration over not having a say on management issues, I honestly feel is incorrect. But that is just my view.... as a non-coder like you.

Take a look at the team, the non-coders (active on 1.0.X and 1.5) still far outweight the people coding. Look at the great work you are doing on opensef as a non-coder, the same is also true about Joomla. Thanks always for your support of our (your) great project. We're working on the issues.. and slowly moving forward.

stingrey wrote:We use the terminology `Working Group` member to refer to non-core members of the Joomla! `Project`. 
`Working Groups` being support groups that are part of the Joomla! `Project` and are led by a member(s) of the `Core Team`. 
http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/13/53/

I don't wish to be seen as belabouring any point, but while the communications from the core team use the term, "working group" the actual members of such groups are labelled "team" on the forums. There is no consistency over the use of the word. Members show up as "Documentation Team", "Mod Team" etc, so when they talk of the "team" doing something, it can so easily be interpreted as the official "team".  Perhaps a simple thing like changing the classification to "working group" may clarify matters.

Just a thought...

Edit: Just to add, core team members are not designated that way in the forums. You all are labelled, "core members".  With over 30,000 people registered here and many more who would look but not register, we can't assume that people can just read posts and know who is who and who has authority to speak officially.

Ken,

With all due respect from time to time you keep bringing up this thing about Core Team/Coders and a lack of management experience. You obviously have no idea what or who we are.

Personally I'm the Director of Business Development of a successful if small IT consultancy. For the majority of the past 18 years I have been in middle/executive management of both small and extremely large organisations.

Similar backgrounds are held by many of the core team. So your continuing arguement that none of us have any management background is at best a incorrect.

You really shouldn't  jump to the conclussion that because we are in the core team we are nothing more than script kiddies.

Cheers
Shayne

Good suggestion Lynne, when I get some time (yeah right, anyone got some time I can buy?) I'll look at unifying the 'Status' of all members across our sites.

[me=brad]adds to To-Do list, point #64[/me]

Would anyone care to list those MANY threads where people ask for funding for Johan? Personally, I haven't seen any.

Thanks Brad - if I ever get some free time (and don't use it to actually get some sleep!) I'll zip it up and send it over 

Hackwar -The question has been asked and answered, for which I thank everyone, and clarity over the status of teams has been added to Brad's list.  I was not posting any criticism and certainly did not intend anyone to read any into my post (the post may not make a whole heap of sense given that my post was in a thread elsewhere).  I sought clarity, got it, and made what I hope were seen as I intended, constructive suggestions.  I was not the only person confused about the fundraising so the responses here help everyone to understand.

Brad: perhaps this thread could be closed now please?

Thread locked as per original posters request