JoomlaForge usability issues from a non-developers point of view

[Billiken]

This is a bit of a rant and I appologize now if it sounds pissy but ya know what.. I'm just that frustrated and annoyed with the forge's whole setup.

I'm not a developer I'm a site builder, I use the packages I don't create and upload them and I find it tedious and annoying to try and move through the forge to find anything. 

Honestly, Mamboforge was so much more useful.  Its not even the lack of categorization is the problem, I could deal with that if:

--- it didn't take me 3 clicks and page loads to find out that there are no files released for a project

--- half the projects weren't just generic descriptions that didn't actually explain what they do.  EXAMPLE (No Offense Phil):
Project Name    Description:

Phill Taylor        A collection of FREE Open Source components, modules, mambots and core hacks to the Joomla core released under the GPL GNU License by Blue Flame IT Ltd (Phil Taylor). We are commited to supporting the future of Joomla! This project will contain (initially) XML- RPC Service Mambots to display mambo modules on non mambo websites, and all other free components released by Phil Taylor.

What good does this description do for a user looking for a specific component?  Unless they know who phil taylor is they're going to either have to make several mouse clicks and wait for pages to load to find out what this project has IF it even has anything released or they're just going to ignore it and find something that actually describes what they need or what they're looking for.  Sorry Phill but your not a project, your a developer, your projects should EACH have their own listing with their OWN description describing what they do.  It gets even worse when I clicked to see what files you had for release:

Joomla Modules on Non Joomla Sites
This package contains all you need to run joomla modules on non joomla websites - see instructions at https://www.phil-taylor.com/Free-Produc ... PHP-Pages/

The instructions arn't appearently included with the download OR in the documentation section of the forge?  Then why does the forge have a documents section?  For the developers to make notes to each other?  Well thats a waste of time for the user.

This sort of thing is commonplace on the joomlaforge, it happened a little on Mamboforge and I ignored them b/c there were so many other projects to look at.  The Joomla forge is kinda light on projects at the moment b/c its still new, seeing so many developers just creating a project with their name on it instead of the actual project just makes it harder to find ANYTHING.

--- the initial page for a project wasn't a bunch of pointless graphs.  As a user, I have NO USE for those what so ever.  Give me the files to download and make them have a date for when they were uploaded that tells me all the information I'll EVER need.

--- the actual front page of the forge itself wasn't wasted with a GIAGANTIC logo that takes up a lot of realestate?  I'm sorry but whats the need of an image that's 539 pixels in height on a site that's used as a download site for the community???  If you want to state all the information that's in that image fine, do so but do it as normal sized TEXT not some massive graphic. 

--- all the projects actually followed a real naming convention with their zip file names.  What good is it to me to download a file that is nothing but a bunch of version numbers?  Why are some modules packed as a zip file inside a zip file? They're not so massive that they need that much compression.  Having to rename files when I'm downloading components/bots/modules as I find them to install later is a waste of time.  The files should be named as to what the project's name is with a release number not just a generic release number.

--- the quick jump search feature actually worked.  Why isn't there just a qucik keyword search?  Why do you have to go to advanced search and select to search from projects just to find one particular project.  I go to quick jump and expect to have a fast keyword search, not have to know some id code to find what I need.  Call me stupid but I don't see why it should be so hard to type "community builder" and find all related results in the forge quickly and without having to go through a myriad of options in an advanced search screen.

--- projects with no files released didnt show up in the same listing as all the other projects... ok so maybe this goes back to categorization but honestly as a user, I have NO interest in seeing projects that people are thinking about making, making, etc unless they actually have something downloadable.  There should be an entirely seperate list of projects for developers to look through and join if they like otherwise us regular users spend a whole lot of time looking at massive file lists with nothing that's actually available to download (This is a problem on Mamboforge too)

--- the project download screen didn't require you to click a check box and a download link when the item name is a link that seems to go no where.  Then there's the files link with numbers as a link that don't explain waht they are that I THINK are the actual file relases.. the whole download selected bit is a waste of time for 90% of the projects b/c your not going to download all the releases or several of them your going to download ONE.

Just call me a very hot headed frustrated user, but at this point, I'm actually going back and finding old mambo projects that work with joomla over trying to hunt through this rediculously bloated forge that is anything but user friendly simply beacuse its a more efficient use of my time. 

There has GOT to be a better solution than this.

[brian]

There has GOT to be a better solution than this.

There is and we are working on it.

Watch this space!!

BRian

[kenmcd]

There has GOT to be a better solution than this.

As a daily JoomlaForge user I understand your pain.
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg139666
The usability of JoomlaForge is horrendous.

Regarding updates to JoomlaForge
Knowledgable PR experts know that the lack of information is far worse than
the release of "bad" news - such as what is happening and when it is going to happen.
This concept seems to be lost on the Joomla PR team - none of which seem to be PR experts.
Any knowledgable PR person would know this.
Unfortunately all offers of help from knowledgable PR people in this forum and the old forum have been ignored.

Oh well.

[brad]

For what it's worth Ken, the forge issues have nothing to do with PR but rather the infrastructure that the 'forge' is running on. There are plans, no, actual development underway to solve this issue. Perhaps the PR team may be able to outline some of the plans when they get a chance. Billiken, thanks for your comments, they have been noted.. and I assure you they will be taken into account.

Isn't it amazing that despite being so badly 'ham-strung' the development team still manages to bring the greatest CMS to 'market' with each new release.

Good work Team!

[gsbe]

Billiken -
Thanks for taking the time to list the shortcomings of J!Forge. Read with a tongue-in-cheek feel, your post is very informative.

Brad & Brian-
Updates on this type of work are much appreciated as we can't really follow the progress anywhere. Perhaps a dev blog on joomla.org for quick updates on J!Forge work? Sometimes I have to remind myself that Joomla is being developed on J!Forge so the core are struggling just as much as we are with it. Cheers.

[kawika]

To me, the most interesting part of Billiken's post is that he's a builder, not a developer. All his comments are from the point of view from someone who has to take what's available and make it work, just like our clients / employers. His frustrations will likely be our client's frustrations as well. Having solutions to solve or workaround them is good to have in our toolbox. Thanks B.

[Epsylon]

This "forge" is ruining our efforts - it's still down ...

[mediamagnate]

There has GOT to be a better solution than this.

As a daily JoomlaForge user I understand your pain.
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg139666
The usability of JoomlaForge is horrendous.

Regarding updates to JoomlaForge
Knowledgable PR experts know that the lack of information is far worse than
the release of "bad" news - such as what is happening and when it is going to happen.
This concept seems to be lost on the Joomla PR team - none of which seem to be PR experts.
Any knowledgable PR person would know this.
Unfortunately all offers of help from knowledgable PR people in this forum and the old forum have been ignored.

Oh well.

This project is barely 4 months old. Sometimes this fact is forgotten.

It's also an Open Source project, which is sometimes forgotten.

Constant criticism of work people do voluntarily is counter-productive and in this case banal.

Which reminds me that walking in another person's shoes is a useful exercise before attempting to lay criticism at their door. If you feel the project of the volunteers are not up to speed, I politely suggest you contact them directly.

[Epsylon]

Well I can understand your reacion and agree with some of your ideas, but I think that several opensource forge do exist, so why not use it instead of creating a new one ?

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

This "forge" is ruining our efforts - it's still down ...

Its up and running for me

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

Well I can understand your reacion and agree with some of your ideas, but I think that several opensource forge does exist, so why not use it instead of creating a new one ?

I dont think you will be disappointed with what is planned.

Forge's are geared up for developers and think like developers.

Wat is needed (and I believe is in developement) is a directory of CMTs rather than a forge, a Directory is geared for end users, looks nice and is really simple to download things from. 

Developers think different, and need different tools to end users just looking for downloads.  The two sites are aimed at different users and should be.

A Forge is a place where code is forged and is not really the place for people to go if they just simply want to download the latest verison of a component.

I look forward to the launch of the new "system" that is planned by the core team.

[gsbe]

I agree that the directory of addons will be a well-received XMas present....if we can get it running that quickly. No promises!

I think the point of this thread is that eventually the user will have to navigate through the J!Forge to download these cool addons that they've read so much about. We should strive and make this journey as painless as possible.

[joomlasolutions_JB]

some of you could maybe use this wasted energy of criticiszing and turn it into productive energy by contributing your time to this open source project instead of only looking for what you can take from it and then bitching about shortcomings

[trompete]

some of you could maybe use this wasted energy of criticiszing and turn it into productive energy by contributing your time to this open source project instead of only looking for what you can take from it and then bitching about shortcomings

nice troll.

It's hard to use for those of us who contribute too, and yes, I'm still spending time supporting my product.

[brad]

Ok everyone,

We know there is a problem.. we will and are already addressing it.

[joomlasolutions_JB]

some of you could maybe use this wasted energy of criticiszing and turn it into productive energy by contributing your time to this open source project instead of only looking for what you can take from it and then bitching about shortcomings

nice troll.

It's hard to use for those of us who contribute too, and yes, I'm still spending time supporting my product.

there ya go, start name calling... pfhhh

[TheSaint]

I sense an unhealthy (and dare I say unwarranted) amount of animosity over this issue. Yes, the Forge currently has some clumsy attributes and shortcomings. It isn't like the developers (core or 3PD) don't have to deal with the problem, they use the same tools that the end-users do. There is one thing we all should have learned by now and that is that software development is much easier said than done.

Granted, I'm not much of a coder/hacker myself, but having been around those who are, it goes without saying that the undertaking is immensely complex and time consuming. These experiences I speak of were when the developers were paid. Do we need to be reminded that the majority of devs using the Forge are not making their living off of it? These people have full-time jobs, college, family to raise, friends and a thousand other obligations.

We should wholeheartedly bite our lip until the proper solutions can be implemented. We're all just as frustrated as the next guy, blowing steam on these forums instead of letting the devs work on the Forge will only hinder the process.

One thing that another non-Joomla dev told me a long time ago is that if you're ever going to get a project done, stop spending all day explaining about what you're going to do, but rather just do it. Let's let these folks get do what they do best and try to be accommodating until they can complete the task at hand.

[Jinx]

Amen to that !

It has been said time and time again, a forge is a developer resource not a user resource. A user resource is coming, just gives us some time. That's all we ask.

Mod-Note : Thread title changed to a more appropriate one.

[kawika]

I learned 15 years ago to spend less time analyzing a problem and lot more time solving it. I agree with the sentiment, patience. Keep up the great forge work.

[squig]

Hi Billiken, I agree with your first post, I made a post related to this requesting the
exact use of the setup at mamboforge.net as was possible as I think that site's setup and useabiliy
are as close to perfect of a site that I have ever used, I really love mamboforge.net I don't
know why it is not used. I made some specific requests on my post here:

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,9591.0.html

Best wishes.

[brad]

Mambofoge is running on software that was not able to cope with the needs/load a project the size of Joomla. Do you remember the constant problems we used to have when mamboforge was under load?

Sourceforge (what we now run) is a VERY well known and stable platform. However as we have already said, an huge improvement in the presentation and usability of the forge is planned.

[WillieManillie]

At least break the search into a directory form.

[wasexton]

I have to agree with the first post on the usability of the forge.  Also, one MAJOR issue that I have always had is not knowing the compatability of any given project.  Are the files compatable with the current release, 2 releases back, etc.  Having customers who do not always keep current, this would be a nice addition as well.

I know that the project is young and like most open source projects they are in the "release often" phase.  However, I would recommend slowing down on the releases, other than security patches, and letting the online tools (forge, etc) and third party developers for components and modules catch up.  These are the lifeblood of Joomla and you dont need to outrun them in your race for releases.  I have posted similar concerns before but I think that release work should slow down and wait for some of these other things to catch up.

Good work overall though. 

Art Sexton

[gsbe]

J!Forge is simply a tool provided by the core team to assist the collaborative development of Joomla-related projects. As Brad Baker said in an earlier post there is much work being done to push the capabilities of J!Forge but these changes are not complete. The core team is very aware of the limitations of the SourceForge Enterprise Edition platform and are interested in making it a more pleasant experience to use. BUT - these modifications to SFEE cannot come at the expense of Joomla.

I want the core team members to do what they love to do: code. I could agree with you only if you were suggesting that a new team be created of interested parties for extending and maintaining J!Forge. I don't think that the burden of this development should fall on the core team. As far as I know, Joomla was courted by VA Software with the understanding that they would be working with the core team and community to extend the SFEE platform. J!Forge is also physically running on servers donated by VA - kudos.

I would like to see VA organize a new team of members of the community interested in extending, maintaining, documenting and supporting J!Forge. It is clear that a number of forum members are committed to putting their time where their mouths are. Let's figure out ways to organize this energy towards the advancement of J!Forge.

Its important to note again that the immediate goal of J!Forge is to aid the development process. If developing on J!Forge is a pain for your team try something else. There are a number of other popular collaborative software development platforms like Sourceforge, CollabNet, Savannah, and Tigris.

[WillieManillie]

I agree the core team shouldn't do any development on the forge stuff.  Based on everything I've read here, they have already expressed that point.  Only suggestions or ideas.  That surely doesn't mean the topic cannot be discussed.

Joomla and SMF are perfectly beautiful.  The modification in a forge is something that can definitely improve with a whole different collaboration of volunteers, if approved.