Why are commercial components allowed?

[ivo.apostolov]

General: If "... because open source matters" remove encrypted addones (excluding demos, which have different purpose), if not remove "... because open source matters". It is simple.

@Vines - what will happen when com_content becomes encrypted addone for Joomla! ?? This is possible, don't you think so?
When I started dealing with Mambo, there was no paid addones!!! That's why I choosed it.

Can I ask you something simple: What would happend, if Alex (akede) decides to change the license of the Joom!Fish and oblidges all 3PD providing multilnaguage support to their COMMERCIAL ADDONES to pay him a fee for example of 1000$ per sold license?

Thank to AmyStephen, he really good understand my point.

Ivo

[Vimes]

@Vines - what will happen when com_content becomes encrypted addone for Joomla! ?? This is possible, don't you think so?

Nope, absolutely not. I think the chances of any of the default downloaded components ever being encrypted/non-GPL are greater than the likelihood of my flapping my arms and flying to the moon.

Can I ask you something simple: What would happend, if Alex (akede) decides to change the license of the Joom!Fish and oblidges all 3PD providing multilnaguage support to their COMMERCIAL ADDONES to pay him a fee for example of 1000$ per sold license?

Somebody would create an application like Joomfish and release it for free. You can bet money on it.

To be honest, if Joomfish wasn't already being done, it's probably a project I'd look at developing myself, because it's an interesting intellectual exercise.

[ivo.apostolov]

I would be really interested to see multilanguage solution from you!

Ivo

[Vimes]

See this thread for discussions on the subject:

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg251519

[AmyStephen]

i think there were some excellent points ArtFusion (who, by the way, is likely a typical representative of the existing Linux market), Ivo (a developer w a more pure open source attitude), manuman (obviously a contributer to the free stuff with hopes of devoting himself more fully -- and sustaining his family), vimes (whose experience in the market informs his view) and Asphyx (who is tired, as am I, of the crusaders come to convert us.)

And yet, not a "raised" voice, or a personal attack.

I completely agree with manuman when he said "heres to open debate in open source."

Excellent job, all.

[AmyStephen]

Ivo -

Do you guys at JoomFish make a living doing this work? If so, do you mind sharing with us how you do that? I am VERY interested in hearing how a developer in the open source world continues to sustain life without charging for product or closing source.

Thanks in advance for sharing that viewpoint...Amy

[ivo.apostolov]

AmyStephen,
I am not really a developer (at least I do not understand myself), but I personally live with the money I earn as Financial and IT Auditor in Ernst & Young.

Did I answer your question?

[AmyStephen]

Oh, I see!  I went to college years ago and studied Accounting, myself. I ended up working in the Information Technology world, though. I make my money working for a company and am trying to bring Joomla into that world.

It sounds like you work with the JoomFish team, though? Do you know how they make money? I really do not understand how a developer can make money if they don't charge for their product. Do you know how they do it?

BTW - I think they SHOULD consider charging for JoomFish if the 3PD uses it in a commercial product. Why shouldn't they get a cut of that profit? If they don't charge too much, I am certain the market will accept it.

[ivo.apostolov]

Alex is working as consultant, Geraint is dealing with financial markets, Levis has own company.

OK?

[AmyStephen]

Thanks, Ivo!

Seems to me that they have contributed a very great thing and deserve to financially benefit.  Maybe Alex is able to through his consulting and Levis through his own company.

Anyway, tell them thanks for the good work for us!

Take care!

[ivo.apostolov]

I can't speak instaed of them, but I think if so, they are focused in providing services (more profitable) then selling software.


Ivo

[AmyStephen]

There's truth to that, as well, Ivo. Providing services can be very lucrative. You just have to find your niche.

[gsbe]

Open source matters to the code that is the Joomla project.
Open source matters to the people that develop the Joomla project
Open source is not to be forced on the people that use Joomla.
Open source is not to be forced on the people that develop with Joomla.

The Extensions Directory is for the people that use Joomla and develop with Joomla.
The Extensions Directoy may be used by the people that develop the Joomla project and certainly involves the utilization of the code that is the Joomla project but its purpose is to help the people that use Joomla and develop with Joomla.

If you feel that closed source is a bad thing for users you have a few options:

1) consider contacting the developer of the extension that is closed source to discuss and/or persuade them to include this in their listing description on the directory.

2) Post a review of the extension that alerts others that this is a closed source release.

To be clear, you should limit your review to the extension itself and not a commentary on why this type of extension should not be listed in the directory. This forum serves us well for these type of discussions. Reviews of extensions should be limited to just that: a review of the extension.

I will continue to suggest that, in my opinion, there are many more pressing issues to concern ourselves with and discuss involving the Joomla project than open source vs. closed source listings on the Extensions Directory. The directory attempts to be an unbiased resource that presents all available solutions. Take in its information with your own biases as you would anything else in the world. In the end, the user must make an informed decision about what extension to install and we hope that the directory helps them get a little closer to making that decision.

[ivo.apostolov]

That is why I didn't review it so far. I will for sure now.

[yabba dabba]

So has the discussion morphed a little, from "Why are commercial components allowed?" to "Why are encrypted components allowed?"

[gsbe]

So has the discussion morphed a little, from "Why are commercial components allowed?" to "Why are encrypted components allowed?"

yes, this seems so.

[AmyStephen]

Love this:

Open source matters to the code that is the Joomla project.
Open source matters to the people that develop the Joomla project
Open source is not to be forced on the people that use Joomla.
Open source is not to be forced on the people that develop with Joomla.

That should be added to the page, Graham.

[ivo.apostolov]

If this is the opinion of the maintainers IT MUST BE INCLUDED IN THE RULES.

[Vimes]

Actually, I'd rather see his last line:

"In the end, the user must make an informed decision about what extension to install and we hope that the directory helps them get a little closer to making that decision."

[AmyStephen]

Let's not go back to the beginning of this discussion. Can't we all at least see the other perspective?

[AmyStephen]

Oh! Come on you people now
Smile on your brother
Everybody get together
Try to love one another right now

For you young 'ens, that's Dave Clark Five, baby.

[yabba dabba]

I will continue to suggest that, in my opinion, there are many more pressing issues to concern ourselves with and discuss involving the Joomla project than open source vs. closed source listings on the Extensions Directory. The directory attempts to be an unbiased resource that presents all available solutions. Take in its information with your own biases as you would anything else in the world. In the end, the user must make an informed decision about what extension to install and we hope that the directory helps them get a little closer to making that decision.

Here, here!! Decent prioritization will help more people more quickly.

[ivo.apostolov]

If the team maintaining the directory think that it is OK to have ENCRYPTED (I personally don't mind to have commercial open source extensions if they are marked as such) extensions in it, my personal opinion is that developers of such extension MUST BE at least OBLIGED to include that information in the listing.

Anyway my opinion about such extensions (excluding demos) is that they don't have place in the directory.

[AmyStephen]

D'oh! I thought we were there. Dang. 

Guys - we are going to have to agree to disagree at this point and give this one some time to see how things shake out. OK?

Talk to you all later...

[gsbe]

developers of such extension MUST BE at least OBLIGED to include that information in the listing.

This is exactly why I suggested that you contact these developers. The editorial staff of the directory can't be expected to investigate every extension...especially in this case because we'd have to request a free test version of a commercial extension simply to determine if they open the source upon delivery or not!

Obviously this matter is important to you folks. Please take the appropriate actions that I suggested to reach what you would consider more full disclosure by contacting the developers directly. You could even create a petition if you like to help persuade developers to include this information...whatever! I'm suggesting that you can make a difference by opening this dialog up directly with the developers. If that doesn't work to your satisfaction you can always use the provided review process of the directory to inform potential users.

[ivo.apostolov]

@gsbe: I can write to the developer, but I can not oblige him to include that information.
But you can... I reported the discussed extension using the link and ... nothing happen

He is not including it to his homepage, why do you expect to include it to advertising directory? He will not do that of course. This will decrease his sales!
But I don't think that it is correct this person to "lie" by using official joomla.org domain

[ArtFusion]

I wrote a review on the Recipes pro extension and kept it on topic about the extension and it has yet to appear, My first one was rightly rejected by graham for not being soley about the extension. Fair enough, but now i wirte one that is both cirtical and applauding the extension and it doesn't appear. But I guess review don't appear in just 8 hours.

Graham, this is imprtant to al ot of us
and open vs closed we feel is at the heart of Joomla.
First you tell us to take our debate to an appropriate thread and forum
Which we have done
Then you admonish us and tellus there are more important things to do and talk about.
I think publishing reviews is more important than you telling us this isnt an important topic, as my review my dissuade more unsuspecting peple from wasting their $65  on an extension that is closed source.

[gsbe]

We do our best to keep up with the reviews but there are a lot of them every day. I have approved a batch of them just now that you'll see across the site.

I also want to continue to encourage you to contact the developers directly before posting your review. Perhaps they would be willing to include the information in their description without having to create a negative review.

[AmyStephen]

And, let's not forget, Graham is a bit exhausted from the work he has done on this extensions site. We might seem a little silly to him given all the rocks he's had to carry.

[Asphyx]

Folks you need to sto thinking religion here..

So, if what you are saying is true, I'm with Ivo, why does it say "Because Open Source Matters?"

Because Joomla is Open Source, and the site is there to support the open source project named Joomla...not Open Source it self!

Open Source matters and the site is showing that because it shows how well supported an open source project like Joomla is!

I don't lmow what everyone is afraid of here...
If you think that keeping out pay programs is going to stop everyopne from charging your wrong.
You not going to hurt them all your going to hurt is some end user who can't find an addon he needs and maybe send him to a commercial CMS as opposed to the OPEN SOURCE J!
If you think listing fewer add ons listed is going to help open source Joomla or it's users your wrong!

Open Source does matter...Joomla is open source. and it matters so much that even commercial developers are willig to write quality components for it.
Joomla is Open Source and by showing all the support both commercial and free Joomla has it shows just HOW MUCH Open Source matters!

That is the purpose of the site!
That is how it supports open source, by showing how widely accepted this open source project named Joomla! is. So well accepted that even commercial companies support it!