Lack of Basic Information Annoying

[ricland]

I know Joomla is open source, but I still don't understand why basic information like how to install a template, module, or mambot is not provided in one central place.

As it is, it seems I have to do a search everytime I want to do something that's very basic.

And please don't tell me to "Post your question and somebody will answer it" that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about since we know everyone who installs Joomla will do basic things like install templates, modules and mambots, why isn't this basic information provided in one central place?

ric

[ricland]

Installing the akocomment module is a good example. Sure, the install package feature is available in Joomla, but what if you have no way of getting the zip file on your desktop. My zip utility automatically unpacks all the zip files.

And what about the mambot, can you just drop it in the directory?

Again, a simple one or two paragraph page explaining how to do basic things like this should be readily available.

ric

[MMMedia]

Have you been to http://help.joomla.org/  ?

The link to it is right at the top of this forum, and at the top of most all of the joomla.org sites.

Also the FAQ forum has a number of good tutorials and informational posts to help everyone.  This one may be a good place for you to start.

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,8542.0.html

[ricland]

Have you been to http://help.joomla.org/  ?

The link to it is right at the top of this forum, and at the top of most all of the joomla.org sites.

Also the FAQ forum has a number of good tutorials and informational posts to help everyone.  This one may be a good place for you to start.

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,8542.0.html

I can't help wondering whether anyone involved in Joomla has really read the so-called "pool or resources" you cite. Nowhere in any of the cites including Anna's Tutorial, et al, is there the basic information I want -- how to install a module and mambot.

And what's really annoying is spending all the time reading through all those resouces only to discover the basic information you seek is not there.

And it isn't ...

So, can someone tell me how to install a module and mambot without using zip files. Afterwhich can this information be placed in a central place so that other newbies won't have to waste days looking for it?

thanks,

ric

[limestone]

What you are asking for is a way to do it without doing it the proper way.

Use the zip file and install it through the backend installers like everyone else.

[ricland]

What you are asking for is a way to do it without doing it the proper way.

Use the zip file and install it through the backend installers like everyone else.

No, what I'm asking for is basic instructions, which, in fact, is the title of the thread.

I'm also pointing that there are no basic instuctions in all the available resources. For example, not even the one you cite is anywhere in all the many resources available, which is bad enough. But what's really bad is when you wade through the resources every time you want to do a basic task, only to find out the basic information isn't there -- no basic info on how to install a template, module or mambot.

Finally, had you read my post you'd have learned I can't install the zip which is why I specifically asked for a work-around. My zip utility program opens all my downloaded zips automatically.

[MMMedia]

Perhaps the problem then isn't with Joomla but in fact your zipping utility.  There are a number of open source zipping utilities out there.  I use 7zip.  What zipping utility are you using.  Is there a way to set it so it doesn't automatically open them?

You are wanting to do things that are outside the norm, not basic.  That is where the problem lies.

[MMMedia]

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,17689.0.html

This thread has information on manually installing mods and coms.  Good luck.

[jbudd]

I dont know your os environment but I can download and install without ever invoking winzip or the other zip utilities I have.

Download the module/component zip file to any convenient place on the server and dont touch it with your unzip utility.
Then use the admin Install|Module or Install|Component screen to install it.
It usually works fine.

Sometimes though there is a zip file within the zip file and you have to unzip one level first. If the installer fails it might be because of this. Usually these packages include a readme file explaining installation.

Yes the documentation is sparse but considering the cost of the software....

[limestone]

Finally, had you read my post you'd have learned I can't install the zip which is why I specifically asked for a work-around. My zip utility program opens all my downloaded zips automatically.

I did read it.

What I didn't do was appreciate that you had no control over your zip utility. If it were my zip utility, I would either

a. Configure it to only open archives when instructed so to do, or, failing that,
b. Uninstall it and replace it with a more co-operative piece of software.

[ranjan]

I too remained confused for a while when I wanted to install extensions using zip files when I was new to joomla, I am still 1 month old to all this.
I personally feel we can improve the basic info for & from newbie point of view.

I struggeled a lot before knowing that I installed the extension but they were not working because they have to be switched on from other panels. Now that's not a norm for almost 100 soft wares I use, installing a plug in means it will ask me a path & once installed its there in the right place, I don't have to do anything further except use it. I have 6 component/modules which are lying dead because I installed it/ switched it on/now it seems there is a 3rd step to it as I don't see them on my home page & I am busy with developing my content..................so will have a look at them when I am free. But those dead extension could have provided some info about the 3rd step if any.

Same happened when I tried installing a component via mambot installer only failing again & again beating my head against wall calling my host to check if the server supports unzip so this thing can work on joomla. He confirmed yes!

It was my host who asked another joomla user who pointed out the issue that components/modules/mambots have there own installer...............fair enough they have, but to a newbie this basic info can be provided on the installer panel itself.
Instead of showing error......FAILED could not find..... it could be "YOU ARE TRYING TO INSTALL A MODULE WITH THE COMPONENT INSTALLER................... USE A MODULE INSTALLER INSTEAD.
There are different levels of newbie so it has to be taken into account.

One more suggestion I can give is that the admin panel should be made color coded to tell the users at what level they are.
There are so many things joomla can do, that as a newbie its impossible to think how it works without someone closely guiding you, which in-fact these forums do...........................but so often I don't know what "term" to search these forum for, because I am new & don't even know if joomla can do it (most of the time it can) so often simple things I cant locate & when some tells me I feel embarrassed, that's its so simple..................................................but I wish I could find & do it my self rather asking for help for everything I do with joomla.

Thanks for such a extensive CMS (I did not know what CMS stand for) being a photographer to me it means COLOR MANAGEMENT SYSTEM.

So you understand different people come from different background & they have a natural tendency to understand things their way not the way joomla operates.

Hope something can be done to improve joomla to make it easy for newbie.
Thanks once again.

[MMMedia]

I agree that documentation could be better and there are numerous posts on the forums discussing this, and changes are in the making right now to have the documentation for the next major release be much more informative, user friendly, and easy to apply.  You are being heard and changes are being made.  Stay tuned for great things. 

Right now all anyone can do is offer what help they can, point you to the existing documentation, and to forum posts that may contain help for each users specific query.  You can help in this by posting as much detail as possible in your initial question, using a very descriptive title for your original post, and when/if solved posting your solution, once you have found it.

And just for informational purposes - there is an error message given when you are trying install "X" when you are using the installer for "Y".  Learning any software does not happen in minutes.  Be patient, we are all here to help you, remember though that you must also help yourself to learn.

[ranjan]

And just for informational purposes - there is an error message given when you are trying install "X" when you are using the installer for "Y".  Learning any software does not happen in minutes.  Be patient, we are all here to help you, remember though that you must also help yourself to learn.

I get to see this when I loaded a component via module installer.
"XML setup file is not for a "module". "
now this is not enough for a newbie, I need the component to be installed & I dont know its a component which I am trying to install, not all components/modules/mambots are marked so.

One good way out is that you force developers of comonents/modules/mambots to have uniform prefix which now some of them are having it.
com_ for component
mod_ for modules
mam_for mambots

I have some old extension downloded few months ago & they dont tell me what they are.

I agree that learning has to be slow, thats ok but I would prefer systematic slow learning.

I must admit that joomla installation is too easy for a newbie than using / configuring joomla & my wish is that in the times to come using should also become easy as its installation.

Best wishes to the joomla core team.
Thanks

[ricland]

I've tried all the cms's and never have I encounted such poor documentation as Joomla.

It's ridiculous.

No instructions on how to install a template. No instuctions on how to install mambots, modules, components. No basic instuctions on how to make sense of the logic behind news items, newsflashs, it's just awful.

It's clear, not a whit of thinking went into showing people how to use this application -- again: the documentation is the worse I've yet seen.

In addition, my sense is this problem is not about to be solved any time soon and that's because no one seems to grasp what good documentation is.

The magic word is "tutorial"  -- which is step-b-step instructions on how to do basic tasks. Not grand overviews about how wonderful Joomla is. Not deep discussions about what each component does, but "step-by-step" instuctions on how to install stuff, reorder content, etc.

This said, I'm dropping Joomla until your next effort at documentation comes out. But again, I am not of the mind that the vast gulf that exists with this app will be filled. And that's because you've yet to aknowledge that the existing documentaion sucks.

ric

[MMMedia]

We are sorry that you feel this way.  Good luck with your endeavors, and we hope to see you back in the future.

Edit:  Perhaps you would like to volunteer for the Documentation Project and help to bring the documentation up to what you feel is necessary.  Or put something together yourself and submit it to the FAQ forum.  There is always a need for help.

[mcwoodley]

have you tried to use the search function?
Google also works wonders.

I will agree the documentation could be better and I am sure it will be down the road, however like a lot of things in life you get what you put into it.  If you do some searches and do some reading then I think you can find your answers.

Also this forum is a great resource.  If you can't find your answer by seearching post a specific and intelligent question and more often than not you will get an answer.

[sccoaire]

While reading the original post from ricland, the one thing that comes up in my mind is this: it's like you're a car mechanic, trying to put a computer together. Of course things can be difficult to grasp, and you have to do your reading. Open Source systems/programs are known to lack documentation, it doesn't mean nobody is improving it. It takes time and resources. And when it's un-paid time and un-paid resources, and you want to use this system/program, you should point out the problem, and then stop.


MMMedia, I don't know who you are exactly, but bravo for keeping a positive composure. Your approach to the comments made is exemplary of how anyone in charge of anything should always behave. My boss has lots to learn from you!! 

I'm new to Joomla! and CMS as well. In December 2005, I had an idea of what I would like to do for my community, and I searched and tried different things. I had no clue what CMS was, but I liked the approach. Joomla! was very confusing to understand, because I had no basic understanding of how a CMS operates. Again, a mechanic trying to put a computer together. I was afraid to even post a message on this board asking for help, because some moderators are quite nasty if you don't spell your subject line properly. But not here, that I've seen anyway.

We all learn differently, I agree. Personally, I just went in, clicked on everything, installed anything I found interesting, tried different settings, etc. I gradually grasped the basic concepts. That's how I learn. When I buy a video game, the last thing I'm going to do is read the booklet. I get in the game, push buttons, and learn from causality.

I think this CMS is amazing, well done, and well organized. For all the coders out there, good job, keep it up!

[MMMedia]

Thank you for your kind compliments sccoaire!

[Scribe]

Just a side note that there is joint effort underway, between the documentation team and some users, to publish a user guide that will answer a lot of these basic questions.

http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,249.0.html

Till then, it's good there are lot's of responsive forum members available to help 

[nathandiehl]

Ric,
thanks for your concerns. Please keep in mind that Joomla! is about 6 months old at this point, so we're working on a better solution. The core is aware of this issue.

Please know that your concerns are not falling on deaf ears--just very busy ones. The Documentation team is in fact hard at work to provide a wonderful manual that should be released when Joomla! 1.1 is released in the coming month or two.

Lastly, if you really have a huge problem with the way things are done here, i would like to remind you that you are certainly welcome to use another CMS.

I am moving this thread of Officail sites feedback.

Thanks again Ric!

[ricland]

First, thank you to all the people who have tried to help. I appreciate it, I really do.

But the point I was trying to make is that the basic concept of a tutorial is not understood here. In virtually every resource in your vast source of resources each writer does the same thing: describes the function of each part of Joomla. But this kind of writing is worthless to a newbie (and please newbies, no testimonials about how you "didn't have any problem at all and this is the coolest cms in the galaxy!"

Even the Scotweb "tutorial" although very well written and illustrated, is not a tutorial.

A tutorial is like the instructions you get with a new appliance or piece of furniture that needs to be assembled. If with the piece of furniture you were given documentation that described each part of the furnitiure, you'd be sitting on the floor for the rest of the year.

Joomla is not a geek toy, that's what you tell us, but from what I've seen, every step of the way vast amounts of basic information is left out. And when I said I see this more in Joomla than in other cms's I wasn't kidding. In other cms's "extensions" come with instructions. Not so, in Joomla.

How in the world are you supposed to know that modules are installed as zip packages? Where does it say that? In all other cms's you unpack the zip and upload the directory. Worse still, even the installer uses language that's confusing: "install package" When I first saw that, I had no idea what it meant. Why not "install zip'?

I'm thinking the people who created Joomla were working from the idea that eveyone who'd try it would come over from Mambo.



ric

[brad]

Ric,
Your comments are noted, however if you want to make a difference perhaps you might like to volunteer your time to help the doc team.

Remember 'we' bring you free software, we donate our time free and we are doing the best we can.

What is Joomla?: http://www.joomla.org/content/view/12/26/

[brad]

I'm thinking the people who created Joomla were working from the idea that eveyone who'd try it would come over from Mambo.

'We' made mambo, and renamed our effort to Joomla, we are still the same team. But that is 7 months old news now... mambo or no mambo Joomla is an awesome project, with an amazing community of volunteers all contributing to the project.

No one is forcing you to use Joomla.

[ricland]

If you search in the archives you'll see I made the same comments about Joomla months ago.

Well here's the problem in a nutshell: Writing step-by-step tutorials are very different from writing in general. Mainly, it's a lot less fun. It involves the kind of thinking most people would rather not do -- dumb thinking.

When geeks fall in love with an application the last thing they want to do is think about it at its most basic -- dumbest -- level. Geeks want to boast about the bells and whistles, they want to brag about how clever the app is, they want to transmit to you why they love the app, but telling you -- in a step by step way -- how to use it, is the last thing they want to tell you. Where's the fun in that?

So, what the newbie ends up with is an incredible application that doesn't come with operating instructions. This same thing happened with Xoops, Typo, and all the other cms's which now have operating instructions, but these operating instructions came only after years of people begging for them in the forums.

But  the first step to recovery is to admint that Joomla  does not come with operating instructions -- stop the denial. This is important. If this admission isn't made, Joomla will go on for years without operating instructions. A good example of what I mean is how several people referred me to the "vast pool of Joomla resources" (documentation) whenever you ask for instructions. But the simple answer to the question "How do you install a module" was nowhere to be found in this vast pool of resources (documentation). Worse still, a newbie can spend weeks wading through this  vast pool of resources before finding this out. Result, he throws his hands up and leaves for another -- inferior -- cms WITH operating instructions.

But again, the first step is to admit Joomla doesn't have operating instructions.

Me, I'm better off than most newbies. I've been around cms's for over two years. I was able to zero-in on the Joomla problem right off. And that problem is this: Sure, I could have kept my mouth shut and figured things out in about two weeks, but, no, that's not the deal. That's not how you promote Joomla.

You promote Joomla as "user-friendly." This is a misnomer and here's why: The newbie with no background with cms's will not be up and running in a week. He will not be up and running unless he has penty of time to burn here in the forum. He just wont (and please, no testimonials from boy geniuses who were able to get up and running in five minutes).

Without operating instuctions Joomla is NOT user friendly. Honestly, do you really think someone with no experience with cms's would be able to figure out Joomla on his own?

Even your extensions don't come with instructions, which, you should know, is unlike any other cms extensions.

And, please, don't tell me that's what the forum is for. That's NOT what the forum is for. The forum is NOT the operating instructions; the forum is for questions you have NOT ANSWERED IN THE OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS.

Honestly, do you have any idea how frustrating it is to have to ask question after question after question right out of the box? Imagine buying a car and having to go to a forum to ask how do you start it or where do you put the gas.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it is coming to a complete halt everytime you need a question answer, logging into the forum and waiting for the question to be answered? Do you have any idea how time-consuming that is? Do you have any idea how dramatically such wastes of time would be reduced if you had operating instructions?

Meanwhile, lyou wonderful people  are racing against the devil to make Joomla newer, faster, sleeker, more powerful.

STOP ...

Cuib your enthusiasim. Joomla is for the masses not the geeks.  Joomla doesn't need to be newer, faster, sleeker, more powerful. It doesn't need to have a feature that fries my bacon in the morning and puts my dog out at night.

That's not going to make the masses line up for it, whoever told you that was the secret of success? It isn't.

Would you like to know the secret of success? Read my lips: USER FRIENDLY.

Would you like to know how to make Joomla user friendly?

Uh-huh ...

ric

ric

[Vimes]

It has already been suggested that if if bothers you so much, then help with the documentation effort.

[Scribe]

I think it's as much a structure effort as a documentation effort. Though I don't necessarily agree with ricland's over zealous approach in some of his posts I must say that I do agree with him in principle and even more I would suggest that Joomla take some of his suggestions to heart.

Just as it is necessary for web developers to have access to an easily categorized list of extensions, such as those listed at extensions.joomla.org, it's equally important for them to get their questions answered, in a timely fashion, on how to solve a particular problem in Joomla.

The forums fall short of this, even though there is a great deal of valueable information available, searching for it can be tedious and often the solutions presented are not from an authoriatative source, incomplete or both. I aslo fear the user manual I'm working on with the documentation team, though a huge step forward, will fall short of answering this issue. It will be very beneficial to have a user manual that someone can read from start to finish but it's simply unrealistic to expect it to answer all the 'how to' type of issues people require.

The solution should follow the same kind of approach you take in regression testing. You add tests as needed till the solution is as near to complete as you can get it. The same solution would be ideal for documentation. Find qeustions that slip through the cracks in the overall documentation add additional faqs that cover it completely.

In general, this is one of the big problems of open source, a lack of  authoritative solutions available in a nice categorized knowleged base where you can go look up a solution and implement it. I think groups that start adopting these types of solutions will truly stand out. It reminds me of an old cartoon I saw a long time ago in an engineering environment with a guy sitting in an outhouse starring at a roll of toilet paper. The caption read; 'The jobs not done till the paperwork's finished!'

[MMMedia]

I only have one problem with this thread, and it isn't the content of the posts or the lamenting the lack of documentation, because as has been stated over and again, the concerns have been heard and it is being worked on. 

I think what is not being understood though is that this a community of volunteers.  If you see a need, why not help instead of just complaining? (also been stated numerous times)

If you feel a need to wax poetic about how so much is wrong, have at it, you will be heard.  But needless to say, if you don't act on the needs that you see lacking, in my opinion, they aren't very credible statements to make.  All that it is, is a complaint, and it seems then to be complaining simply for the sake of it.

Volunteer and turn that negativity into something positive.  Fill the need.

As for the argument about basic documentation - Where is that line drawn as to what is basic?  Is it the fundamentals of web design, or should we assume you know a bit about it?  How about running your own website?  Should we assume you know at least the fundamentals, or will take the time to learn this, or should we include that too?  How about CSS and Standards, should Joomla be responsible for creating documentation for this or should we take the course of thinking that there are much better resources already existing all over the web to aid in this?  I don't think it would be possible to include everything that everyone in every given situation and level of experience could ever need to know to operate Joomla.  If anyone does have suggestions as to where they think the line should be drawn, then please let the community know, then others could help act on the suggestion.

I don't know how much more authoritative in terms of information you can get, than from the people actually using the software telling others of their experience good and bad alike.  Sure searching can be tedious.  There is a whole lot of life that is tedious but hopefully the end result is worthwhile, and no one can decide that but the individual.

Keep the suggestions coming, hopefully add to it some thoughts you may have on a solution.  The complaining - it gets really old, really fast.

Happy Joomlaing.  Sorry for being so long winded.

[Apollo]

@ MMMedia

Happy Joomlaing.  Sorry for being so long winded.

I thought I am reading some kind of never ending story  .

I am getting tired of all the complaints. For Christ sake we are doing this as volunteers.

[Scribe]

Hey MMMedia, I hope my post wasn't perceived as complaining. Being one of those volunteers right now I agree completely with what you said but would like to expand on the doc issue a bit. Certainly Joomla shouldn't be responsible for teaching people the basics of web developement or CSS design, but it is a complex system. I was just wondering aloud if there may be a more effective way to catalog the info while making it easier for users to contribute? Knowledgebase? Wiki? Not sure.

I just know that from my own perpsective I'd like to go to a place, as an example, where I could look up modules and find categories like overview, installation, design, support. Maybe under design there would be great articles about integrating with patTemplates or how the cascade in CSS can applies to modules. Perhaps there would even be subcategories associated with different releases that update the info from one release to the next. How about a category for multimedia under Joomla? I don't know, just brainstorming.

The existing help is a good start but the module examples stop with hello world. It's probably unrealistic to expect the developers or doc team to do it all. It has to involve the community but there has to be some structure in place for the community to use and that will take some leadership. I'm sure there would be people willing to contribute if they knew how.

I think finding some way of tapping into the intellectual wealth of the community and translating it into solid tutorials that are easy to find and cover a broad range of topics sounds like a great idea.

My Last word on the subject, really  , back to work.

[MMMedia]

Scribe, you are definitely being part of the solution    But as one actively working on Documentation, don't think that this thread is based on something that has been heard, has been acknowledged, and is actively being corrected?  Keep up the good work!

just know that from my own perpsective I'd like to go to a place, as an example, where I could look up modules and find categories like overview, installation, design, support.

But there lies a slippery slope of drawing that line again. Would Joomla be responsible for keep all that information updated on individual 3PD stuff or shouldn't the 3PD individually be responsible for it?