Mambo Open Source Development Team - Letter to the community - Discussion

[infograf768]

ok guys.As I can see.The greatest os project's getting in a new formatiıon for to be "The Real OS Project".We'll be continuing supporting the system as Mambo(or the newname) Turkey Community.I'm an administrative member of the community site of my country which Coordinating by Danial Taherzadeh.And we'll continue to the supprting "OUR" greatest open source content managers development.

I'll only request for the new name from the DEV Team Members.Before it announced(for preparing the Turkey Community again and Running without Speedlost)

I know that if the expected day will come.This makes all the difficulties,holy.if a reformation's needed.it'll be done.But we must be quick and clear.I want to say Congratulations to the Team.Reformation'll bring you some more responsibility.Creating a new style a new Name a new community isnt an easy thing.But I'm sure that YOU'll overcome against this.For this reason I'm really RELAX  and looking forward.As one of the community leaders I just want the team to inform us about the project before announcement.I'm sure that other countries community leaders are sharing the same ideas with me for helping their people and for giving uninterrupted serivce.I'll be checking this site and looking for some more information every day.

A famous Turkish idiom's coming up

"Allah Utandırmasın!"    (means "I hope the God'll never make you shamed in the future")

sorry for my poor english.

http://mambo.gen.tr

My e-mails are;

[email protected]
[email protected]

Hi Sinanata,

Your concerns are taken care of.
Mehmet Said Altıok will know beforehand to avoid any problem regarding IPs.
Please ask him to post in the Translation Forum we are re-gathering here.
All Communities will be informed in time.
Thanks for your support.
Friendly yours.

[aramova]

Greetings,

I've used quite a few CMS's, from Tikiwiki to Mambo, and the work this core team has done has won me over. You have my support, and godspeed with the new direction. Looking forward to the new system.

Cheers

--Thomas

[Hugo]

Hi all,

I have discovered the existence of CMS and mambo about a year ago and went from static HTML coded sites to dynamic sites using mambo from that moment on.

I have been very pleased with mambo and am running 5 sites with it now. I make extensive use of 3rd party modules, components and mambots.

For me, mambo has been the most "logical" CMS to use and it suits my way of working and needs very well. Kudos to the dev team for a wonderful CMS. They get my full support (for what it is worth, being not a php programmer :-).

I am also totally in favor of open-source, not only because it is "free" (I did and do pay big buks for software I use and like to use), but from a moral and filosofical point of view. The world is already to much owned by commerce and the big holdings. I do respect people trying to make a living from their work (like the 3rd party developers making commercial modules and so).  It's a thin line, but let's say I'd rather support the little food shop around the corner then a shopping mall :-).

I hope the "new" "mambo" will continue to exist and will continue to be developed. This news came as a shock to me (and I know to all of you / us) and it must really be hard for the core team and all the people who where involved in enhancing "mambo".

Like I said they have my full (moral) support and I have to congratulate all of them for giving us the posibillity to use  such a great CMS. I have also to mention the great support from a community that has always been very helpful in resolving my "problems" with mambo.

Sorry for some "bad English", but it's not my native language.

Hugo

http://www.pego.be
http://www.weedbackingtracks.com
http://www.jazztabs.org

[gsbe]

http://www.weedbackingtracks.com
http://www.jazztabs.org

Glad to see someone else with a vested interest in Jazz involved with this community.

[Hugo]

http://www.weedbackingtracks.com
http://www.jazztabs.org

Glad to see someone else with a vested interest in Jazz involved with this community.

Well, if something IS open-source, it is jazz  . Open source "avant la lettre".

Hugo

[Jelte]

I believe in the future of Mambo with the current core dev's!

And I will support it as much as i can

[DrM]

Well, it is sad that it had to come to this. This "split" will worry the average user and will likely prevent some people from using a very fine system. I trust that the core developers felt that they had no other choice. Unfortunately, this will be a distraction to everyone and a burden to the developers of components and modules. Now, they will have to develop similar things on dual platforms with the necessary dual testing, etc.

Oh, and I vote for Tango. Tango is very elegant and a wonderful dance

Best of luck to everyone!

Mark

[DaveR]

Wow this was a shock this morning when my lead programmer told me about this. We're mainly a 3D Development Company.  But we have been using Mambo for about 1 year now. And have used it on 2 major sites already and had plans to use it for more sites we develop.

We also Support the Core Team in what they are doing! I was very glad to see that the team has enlisted the legal group Software Freedom Law Center. We will be watching this very closely. I know we might have to hold off setting up more sites until we know what direction this will all go. Were also setting up our own OS Project but related to 3D. So seeing how this pans out is very worth our interest.

Good Luck!!

DaveR

www.dm3ds.com.au

[molok]

[absalom]

Well, it is sad that it had to come to this. This "split" will worry the average user and will likely prevent some people from using a very fine system. I trust that the core developers felt that they had no other choice. Unfortunately, this will be a distraction to everyone and a burden to the developers of components and modules. Now, they will have to develop similar things on dual platforms with the necessary dual testing, etc.

Oh, and I vote for Tango. Tango is very elegant and a wonderful dance

Best of luck to everyone!

Mark

The potential worry for 'average users' is why my site doesn't tell all the fine details of what I've said here. As I tell all the people I deal with in communications, marketing and PR, what people will follow is something that is simple and conveys a sense of security to who they are. I even told Mr Lamont this very thing yesterday, as  some of our discussion did focus on the way information was being communicated out of Miro.

[Jafo]

I like Salsa, or OpenMambo.  The idea of nachos and chips is interesting.

Tango would also work for me too.

[eric]

Worry the average user? I was terrified, and I'm still a little apprehensive. I've been building an entire university website on Mambo.  Ahh well, what are you gonna do, right?  I'll just roll with it, and hope everything works out

My main concern isn't what the new fork will be named, but the money needed to keep up the infrastructure required to support a project like this. We need an avenue to donate!

[killer-g]

thanks to molok..... no words

[molok]

thanks to molok..... no words

You Welcome...now im banned 

[man_of_mr_e]

Allright.  This has gone too far.  I made comments earlier that i thought were constructive, and enlightening about the behavior of the core devs here, and how they were acting like Miro.  Now, i've been accused by a core dev (i assume, he presents himself as one anyways) of being a member of the Mambo Foundation:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=159 ... d=13351173

He claims I'm posting to this forum from an IP address that's the same as a Mamba Foundation member as his "proof".  I challenge Mitch to prove this accusation, because I find it highly unlikely that it's true, which means Mitch is now either lying to stir up the mess more, or he's jumping at shadows.

First, I find it despicable that not once, but twice (one of the core deves earlier used my real name) the core devs have thrown privacy to the wind by (in the first case, checking the email address I requested to remain invisible and then using my name, which is part of the email address) and in the second claiming to have dug up my IP address i'm posting from to dig up "dirt".  This is a flagrant abuse of the power of being an administrator of your site.  

Second, as I said, I find it highly unlikely (nearly impossible, in fact) that my ip address WAS the same as that used by a foundation member.  I say "almost" because the address is a NAT'd address, and there are several hundred PC's behind it.  However, I'm confident that nobody that could be behind any of those computers would even know what Mambo was, much less be a member of the foundation.  It's a small school with a very weak technical department and a very weak computer science department.  I doubt i'm even in the same STATE as the person i'm being accused of being.

Third, I'm posting from my home computer right now.  I give you permission to look up the IP address, do a reverse DNS and do a whois lookup on my hostname for my real name.  I know i'm taking a risk that you won't AGAIN violate privacy common sense by doing so, but I'm not about to be accused of such things in public forums by core devs without them proving their case.

Now, unless you prove your accusations, Mitch, I expect a full appology, *AND* I expect you to take criticism for your actions without jumping to conclusions.

A very pissed off commenter.

[blogmaster2003]

I just want to say:


[size=100][size=100][size=100]GOD BLESS YOU  Dev Team[/size][/size][/size].

I´m IN.

[eric]

I just want to say:


[size=100][size=100][size=100]GOD BLESS YOU  Dev Team[/size][/size][/size].

I´m IN.

What he said.  And hurry up with that donation link. 

[Predator]

Allright.  This has gone too far.  I made comments earlier that i thought were constructive, and enlightening about the behavior of the core devs here,

What was the enlightning and constructive thoughts?

[quote=∓quot;man_of_mr_e"\]
and I *REALLY* dislike it when we're supposed to put our trust in a hypocritical action.
[/quote]

On slashdot you told you have never been involved with mambo, so who is we?

Think of it as the birth of an open source project.  A community doesn't get together and vote on what the project will be.  SOMEONE creates the first version, and gets it out there.  Then the community can shape it to whatever it wants.  I think this is what Miro planned to do, but the massive overreaction by the people afraid of losing their "status" or "control" caused everyone to become defensive and break off communication.

Seems you know more about the reason from Miro?

Intersting.  I find it ironic that with all the demands for transparency, even the core dev team has decided to become opaque.

Like i said, I'm sure there were good reasons for what you've done.  And I realize that i'm not privy to everything that's happened.  But honestly, the formation of a foundation is NECESSARY in my mind.  Whether it be Miro initiated or something else.  And that means, as I said, a certain amount of "just doing it" rather than a huge community driven process.

Guess this is not your decision.

I guess my point is that the core dev team is now doing the very things they (and others) accused Miro of doing.  Namely, secretly carrying out actions.  Great, you've been advised not to comment, but don't you think Miro was advised about that as well?

Who you are the lawyer of Miro?

A very pissed off commenter.

Maybe save your comments, this is my opinion. I can`t see any constructive and enlighning comments in your posts, sorry to be rude but i get pissed off which those people coming over here and act as a Collegeteacher as you did. What is your relation to mambo in the past or currently?

Regards

[man_of_mr_e]

The constructive and enlightening parts of my posts were simple.  A lot of fuss was made about things that Miro did, then as soon as the core devs "split off" they start doing THE EXACT SAME THINGS. 

This leads any critical thinker to consider WHY.  The obvious reason is that there are real and legal reasons to act the way they are.  That means, the core dev team split from Miro because of real and legal reasons that Miro acted that way.  It's called Hypocricy.

I am not involved with Miro in any way.  In fact, other than looking at Mambo briefly while looking for other CMS solutions, i've never even been to the web site before this.  However, I've been involved in these kinds of situations before, and it's frustrating to me when I see obviously intelligent people a) taking everything they read at face value, despite clear contradictions in the evidence presented by both sides and b) ignoring the obvious hypocricy being carried out.

There are LOTS of good reasons to split.  I'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with what they've don in that regard.  What I'm arguing against is the *MANNER* in which they chose to do it, by creating a mob scene, sceaming about various behaviors, and then perpetrating those same behaviors themselves.

What pissed me off even more was that I am then accused by a core dev of being a member of the mambo foundation by clearly inventing evidence, and calling into question MY honesty.  I'm still waiting for an appology, which I doubt i'll see, or the evidence to support the accusation, which I know we'll ever see.

By the way "we" means "the community".  Though I don't currently use Mambo, being on this forum and taking an interest makes me a member, even if you don't like it.

[spacemonkey]

Allright.  This has gone too far.  I made comments earlier that i thought were constructive, and enlightening about the behavior of the core devs here, and how they were acting like Miro.  Now, i've been accused by a core dev (i assume, he presents himself as one anyways) of being a member of the Mambo Foundation:

First, taking this debate offline as your profanities have no place in this forum. Please keep that in mind - I'm a New Yorker so you can say whatever you want to me, but in these forums your message has to stay clean. You can argue without crossing that line, and it will be enforced.

For the record, I have privately sent this person my office phone number (a toll-free one in the States) and offered to have them call and scream at me privately. There are only a few questions needed to be asked, and this whole thing will be settled.

[Beldroan]

I am glad the developers took a stand.  I look forward to whatever this evolves into eventually and hopefully in the near future. 

[pkortge]

Hi There:

Sorry to hear that you're apparently copping "flack", but so far (to my knowledge) yours has been the only "negative" post on this whole matter - and it appears to be founded on a misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the facts !.

You're also confusing the Mambo Foundation, Inc's name with its Legal status !

Foundations are legal entities, and because of this, you have to have formal methods of voting by the membership.  When you form a foundation, there are no members yet, and as such there is no way to legally vote in the members of the board.  As such, all initial members of a foundation board *MUST* be appointed by whomever forms the foundation.  This is just an initial formation board, though.  Once the foundation is a living entity with real members, then a real vote can take place to either affirm the board, or elect new members based on the memberships decisions.

Yes, a "Foundation" can be a legal identity - in this case it was Registered as "Mambo Foundation, Inc." in Victoria, AUSTRALIA as an "Incorporated Association".

A search at Consumer Affairs Victoria - Incorporated Associations at:-

http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/servlet/cav_search_criteria?mode=iaextr

reveals:-

• Organization Name: Mambo Foundation, Inc.
• Organization Number: A0047564G
• Date Registered: 8/8/2005
• Status: Registered

Note: For a fee of AUD$12.60, you can click the [Buy] button and buy online "Additional information about an incorporated association". ie the paperwork they lodged to register Mambo Foundation, Inc.

If you're interested in the "Incorporation process for the State of Victoria, Australia, see:-

http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256EB5000644CE/page/Business+Names+%26+Business+Structures-Incorporated+Associations?OpenDocument&1=20-Business+Names+%26+Business+Structures~&2=20-Incorporated+Associations~&3=~

Interestingly, see the section "How do we incorporate?" at:-

http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256EB5000644CE/page/Business+Names+%26+Business+Structures-Incorporated+Associations-How+do+we+incorporate%3f?OpenDocument&1=20-Business+Names+%26+Business+Structures~&2=20-Incorporated+Associations~&3=20-How+do+we+incorporate%3f~

There is also a very easy to read Incorporated Associations - FAQ which tells you all you need to know at:-

http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256EB5000644CE/page/Business+Names+%26+Business+Structures-Incorporated+Associations-Frequently+Asked+Questions?OpenDocument&1=20-Business+Names+%26+Business+Structures~&2=20-Incorporated+Associations~&3=95-Frequently+Asked+Questions~#Incorporation

The main item of interest to me (and everyone else) was the following:-

"How do I incorporate an Association?

A group that wants to become an Incorporated Association must give the members 21 days notice that a meeting of the group will be held and that one of the agenda items will be to apply for incorporation as an Association under the Associations Incorporation Act 1981.

At the meeting:

• a majority of members (whether in person or by proxy) must vote to pass the motion to incorporate as an Association;
• a person, residing in Victoria, is authorised to apply to incorporate the Association;
• a proposed Statement of Purposes and the Rules or Model Rules are adopted.

After the meeting the person authorised becomes the first Public Officer of the Association and must complete and lodge the Application for Association Incorporation form, the Statement of Purposes, the Rules and the incorporation fee with CAV. "

None of the above took place and none of the "Group" (the 40,000+ mambo members on the Miro mamboserver forum alone) were given any notice - let alone 21 days !

[i]The http://mambo-foundation.org/ website started with Visitors being greeted with a:-

• User ID & Password Screen, then changed to showing a
• "Website will be open very soon" message with it's title page saying "The Mambo Foundation Inc. A non-profit organisation incorporated in Victoria, Australia.", and now says
• Mambo Foundation | The Mambo Open Source organisation

and when we visit the "Foundation's" website, all our "fears" about what we thought may happen have come true !

PS: Can't see the [indent] [/ident] command under formatting options for this version of the forum software ?

[man_of_mr_e]

Peter,

Thanks for your comments.  I disagree with you that an internet forum can legally be considered an "association" with "members".  Apart from the fact that there is no way to identify whether that's 40,000 individual people or 1 person with 40,000 email addresses, there's also no way to validate any kind of vote that could take place.  If the Mambo web forum required unique identifying informaiton, other than a working email address, you might have a point.  Further, how many of those 40,000 people could be considered "active" members?  There are just too many grey areas to consider this a real "association".  There are no meetings.  No minutes.  No nothing.

In my opinion, the only real "group" here was the Mambo Steering Comittee, which by the core devs own admission was made up of devs, and authorized the creation of the foundation.  They didn't like the way things turned out, which is a valid complaint, but this has been blown into something else entirely.  It's been said over and over again that nobody was consulted.  Yet the core devs say they AUTHORIZED it.  That seems like they were consulted to me.  It's that little fact that has me doubting EVERYTHING that's being said.

[mambocrib]

Dev Team,

You have my 100% support.  You decision is the right one.  God bless each one of you and I look forward to many more good things on Mambo.

Olu

[sarahk]

According to Andrew Eddie, the first release will be what would have been the 4.5.3 release. All your development will work with the new code base, not to worry

What a shame that such a great system has becomed bogged down with politics. One of the reasons I first decided to try Mambo was that the userbase was so strong, believing that that in turn gave the lead developers the motivation to continue their work. What a shame that it's also created a power struggle.

Sarah

[digidydave1]

It's literally taken hours to wade through the posts here and over at the old place since I found out about the recent split from mambolance this morning.

I owe much of the success of my sites to this community, especially folks like stingrey who really helped me when I was a noob trudging through the steep opensource learning curve for the first time -- way back when stingrey wasn't even on the core team.

The fact that the core development team made a unanimous decision has sent the appropriate message to me and hopefully to anyone else involved in the previous Mambo community. I think that when the dust settles from this split, the current Nameless CMS and all of our sites will be stronger for it.

Behind ya from Chi-town,

dg

P.S. Post the donation link, and I'll contribute.

[absalom]

One of the reasons I first decided to try Mambo was that the userbase was so strong, believing that that in turn gave the lead developers the motivation to continue their work. What a shame that it's also created a power struggle.

Sarah

The trick with any sort of leadership is to lead without coersion. The Foundation, at least in the circumstances that surround the inital press release, and the subsequent lack of answers leading up to the website, didn't convey a sense of safety that people aren't being sold short.

Which is where we're at today..

[absalom]

In my opinion, the only real "group" here was the Mambo Steering Comittee, which by the core devs own admission was made up of devs, and authorized the creation of the foundation.  They didn't like the way things turned out, which is a valid complaint, but this has been blown into something else entirely.  It's been said over and over again that nobody was consulted.  Yet the core devs say they AUTHORIZED it.  That seems like they were consulted to me.  It's that little fact that has me doubting EVERYTHING that's being said.

Well, when I was discussing the whole MSC, Foundation and opensourcematters with Peter Lamont, he did comment that they wanted a foundation. He didn't say that they wanted the Foundation the way it has turned out, or with the structure, makeup and people that is now in it.

Part of this is to do with personalities and part of this is to do with the fact nobody on the core team could trust Jim Begley and other new appointee to the Mambo Foundation (from what I can glean off Peter's words when we discussed this)

[man_of_mr_e]

As I said, I believe that the core devs have a legitimate complaint that the foundation didn't include them as board members, or the MSC.  However, my issue is the way this whole thing has been portrayed.  Making big deals about "nobody was consulted" yet the fine print says that core devs on the MSC approved the creation of the foundation. 

It's the way the issues have been portrayed, both in articles written, in the letters issued, and most importantly, by everyone "championing the cause" that I take issue with.  I appreciate that you feel strongly about your position.  That doesn't mean you can bend the facts to portray something that doesn't seem to be true.

I'd be a lot happier if everyone just admitted that this was about the devs not being appointed to the board, not because of some deep dark conspiracy in which nobody was consulted (when even by their own admission, they were).

Yeah, Miro incorporated the foundation and appointed the members without getting a "vote", but if you really want to change who's on the board, join the foundation and call for an election, and then get it seconded and approved by the membership (which if they agree with you, shouldn't be a problem).

The core devs authorized the formation of the foundation, by their own admission.  Taking their toys and going home at the first sign of disagreement doesn't say a lot for the future of the project. 

If you don't like the way the foundation was incorporated and don't want to be a member, fine.  Start your own, but geez, don't go on a warpath and accuse people of everything under the sun.  Just Do it.

[tonyskyday]

From the information I've seen (which is almost entirely what is publicly and widely available), you are misconstruing the situation.

There is no way you can talk about this as if the creation of the Foundation was square one in this situation.

Also, authorizing the formation of a Foundation that would recieve ownership of the copyrights, and being told a Foundation was created that would not own the copyrights, and that would have expensive membership fees, and a board make-up that was chosen without consulting the developers, are two different things.