Lack of Basic Information Annoying

[Scribe]

Thanks!

I agree the slope is slippery and icy! It can really only work if the community and 3PDs to do it. It's the beauty and the curse of open source software!

[ricland]

First, telling newbies who complain they should help with the documentation is like telling guy who's 5'6" he should go out for his college's basketball team. Sure, it sounds clever and everybody should make a contribution to the old school spirit, rah, rah, one for the Gipper and all that, but get real. I can't even install a module, what possible contribution can I make ... save the one I make by complaining?

Complaining is good. Going out for the college basketball team when you're  5'6" isn't. You're wasting your time and everybody else's.

Second, turning the question of operating instructions into a question of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, doesn't advance the ball either. Operating instructions have been around for a long time, presumably, because they work. Joomla doesn't have any nor will it ever have any if we keep denying operating instructions are necessary (or keep telling newbies to write them).

Listen to the newbie. Learn from newbie. Don't tell  him to shut-up when he complains. Don't send him on wild goose chases. Don't tell him to join the documentation team. Don't remind him he doesn't have to use Joomla. He knows that. You know that, so why even say it?

Don't listen to the geeks who tell you there's nothing wrong with Joomla. Joomla is not for geeks. It's for dummies like me!

Again, making Joomla "new and improved" is not what's needed. Drop everything you're doing. Throw away all your whiz-bang plans. Don't make Joomla better, make it easier.

This Joomla is not user friendly. Swallow your pride and admit this. I know it hurts like hell to admit this, but as they say in AAA, the first step to recovery is to admit you're a drunk.

ric

[MMMedia]

ricland you are certainly entitled to your opinion.  I don't think you are entitled to be disrespectful.  If using Joomla is causing you to be disdainful and disrespectful of people helping you for free, and helping you use open source software created by people for free - then I think you need to move on to something else.

I think it will make you feel better.  I hope you do.   Come back and visit if you feel it will suit your needs in the future.

[newmedia]

ricland,

I wonder if you could channel your obvious passion about this issue into a short outline of what you think should be included in a newbie "getting started" guide.  Just a simple step by step outline of what you envision could be useful for those who are currently writing the documentation.  It IS hard to remember what it's like to be a beginner, so a fresh newbie can be invaluable in helping to write newbie instructions.

Do you see this "getting started" tutorial as a series of steps (step 1 - do this, step 2 - do that) or as a series of questions (How do I install, how do I find a template.) 

Also, can you point us to any online tutorials that you think are good so we can get a clear idea of what you have in mind?

[brad]

If you do have any suggested FAQS/Tutorials, please post them here: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,49.0.html

[TechGnome]

As some one who is new to Joomla, but not to web development or CMS's and shares some of ricland's frustrations (albiet not quite to the same level of .... umm.... pasion) I'll take you up on that offer of outlining things I'd like to see documented. As I play with Joomla a little more over the next few days, I'll put together a list and post it here in the forums somewhere (probably under Documentation.)

I'll do my best to try to point out the unobvious stuff, where things are laking, as well as were the information is good.

Although, I have to admit that I am begining to wonder if Joomla will fit my needs. I've been poking at it for almost two weeks now and I'm still so very far from where I want it to be (which, so far, it's OK since I'm not in a real big hurry ATM.)

-tg

[MMMedia]

Looking forward to it TechGnome! 

[eyezberg]

This same problem: documentation! (or the lack of it) exists since I've first started using Mambo end of 2003. The same answers have always been provided. When I first began figuring my way arouund Mambo and its extensions, there were infos on various sites, and my questions about, then my demand for Help & Docs were answered the same way: don't ask for it, help us writing it! It's all voluntary etc.. So I did. I was on the Mambo doc team for a while with Jean Marie, getting most of the 452 docs ready. But felt we were not getting enough infos about all the constant code / feature changes, and there were new versions all the time, and we were always at least one version behind. So at the time of the Mambo => Joomla move, I quit.
A LOT of work has since then been accomplished in a short (internet) time, but a lot is still to do, as pointed out. So now *I* tell you: stop asking for docs, write them!
Once you have used the soft for some time, you simply can not think like the newbie and get back to the most basics things, because you have already learnt and internalized that knowledge. So it is really up to newbies to document the problems they encounter, and the solutions to them, in a way another newbie can relate to and understand, and pass on that wisdom! Coders should (and have started doing so; see the Devs part of the site) document the code and how to use it, that's a minimum to make extending the Core as easy as possible. 3rd party extension devs should indeed, I fully agree, document what they contribute. Emphasis on *should*, who is to telll them: hey, you gave me this great extension for free, now tell me how to use, where's the mannual? Coders are coders, anyone here can help document any part of J! or an extension they use. Look for a faq, and submit a tutorial to explain the solution. I started writing some again in my own corner of the Net.. more to come. Now, up to you to contribute. If this manual for 1.1 is published close to release, that would be a huge step forward. There's a book out now (haven't had the chance to flip through yet..). As you say yourself "the problem in a nutshell: Writing step-by-step tutorials are very different from writing in general. Mainly, it's a lot less fun. It involves the kind of thinking most people would rather not do -- dumb thinking". So you demand people to think dumb and do things which are not fun to help you out..? Why should they? Because they provide Joomla they also have to tell you how to use? They told you the issues are aknowledged, being worked on (be volunteers), and a manual is in the works, yet all you have to say is "docs are bad", over and over.. "The newbie with no background with cms's will not be up and running in a week." is false, I was, and I'm not a boy wonder ot whatever it was you called that, I was just interest enough to try things out, search the forums and various sites for information, and at that time, there were almost NO docs at all!
At the time of Mambo 452 docs (which Joomla 1.0 was based on), it was decided the docs should describe the interface and it's functionality, and tutorials written by community members should cover the rest. There's always only so much you can do in the time you have to offer, but if everyone here picked up just one part / screen / step and documented that, everything would be done already.. nearing 30000 members.. but noone has to. But those who complain should.

Was I longer than everyone? Dunno, Quick reply is ready to overflow..
Don't read this ramble...
I was long, two replies since I started.. see, Tech's offer is helpfull, just asking for docs or tut's is not. Pay me and I'lll write a book for you

Edit: hadn't seen the other replies since I started typing..
"Don't make Joomla better, make it easier... This Joomla is not user friendly. ..."
So easier is not better? Or, better is not easier?
You complain about docs, to conclude Joomla is not user friendly. This is unrelated. A piece of software can be so easy to use you don't even need any instructions. If Joomla, or parts of it, fail in being that easy to use, then please
* point out which part(s)
* why, in your opinion
* how it could be better
To sum up: help us to help you

[Tonie]

[quote=∓quot;ricland"\]
Complaining is good. Going out for the college basketball team when you're  5'6" isn't. You're wasting your time and everybody else's.
[/quote]

Complaining about an open source program like Joomla isn't good, it's just plain rude and an offense to everybody who are giving their free time to the project.

[quote=∓quot;ricland"\]
Don't listen to the geeks who tell you there's nothing wrong with Joomla. Joomla is not for geeks. It's for dummies like me!
[/quote]

Thanks again for calling everybody here 'geeks'. Why is Joomla for people like you? Joomla is build by the community in combination with the developer team, Joomla is theirs. They made it what it is today and decide which way it is going to go. There is a lot of effort being done to make it better than it is today. We all know Joomla isn't perfect, but what is? I'm just happy that Joomla exists, and it does all these things for me. IMHO if a person can't have a running site within a week, they need support from a person who has done it more often.

[quote=∓quot;ricland"\]
Again, making Joomla "new and improved" is not what's needed. Drop everything you're doing. Throw away all your whiz-bang plans. Don't make Joomla better, make it easier.
[/quote]
I don't think people posting in the wishlist wishing for multisites, multilingual sites, SEO friendly, database support would agree with this particular statement . The CMS world is in its infancy, there are too many quick gaines before a CMS will become just another default technology.

[quote=∓quot;ricland"\]
This Joomla is not user friendly. Swallow your pride and admit this. I know it hurts like hell to admit this, but as they say in AAA, the first step to recovery is to admit you're a drunk.
[/quote]
Joomla is very user friendly. A user of Joomla is an editor who creates content for his site visitors, this is very easy. A person who builds a site is designing, a very distinct difference.

[AmyStephen]

I'm a geek. Once I finally admitted it and I realized the richest man in the world is also a geek, I stopped trying to recover.

I am not even afraid that my reference to Bill might spawn nasty, pointed discussion about the barbarbic marketing techniques of M$. I hope it does! I'd rather read those posts than see anyone else in this thread -- people who each worked so hard to help me learn when I was brand new -- be any more frustrated than they are now.

For those of you looking for a product with excellent documentation. FrontPage has EXCELLENT documentation! Just an idea. < http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010858021033.aspx >

[MMMedia]

For those of you looking for a product with excellent documentation. FrontPage has EXCELLENT documentation! Just an idea. < http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/FX010858021033.aspx >

Is this the Humor board? 

[TechGnome]

I've been stopped on this thread for some time now, trying to figure out how to reply without seeming ungrateful, rude, annoying and spitefull. I can't guarantee that I managed to exract all of that out, but here's my best shot:

This same problem: documentation! (or the lack of it) exists since I've first started using Mambo end of 2003. The same answers have always been provided. When I first began figuring my way arouund Mambo and its extensions, there were infos on various sites, and my questions about, then my demand for Help & Docs were answered the same way: don't ask for it, help us writing it! It's all voluntary etc.. So I did. I was on the Mambo doc team for a while with Jean Marie, getting most of the 452 docs ready. But felt we were not getting enough infos about all the constant code / feature changes, and there were new versions all the time, and we were always at least one version behind. So at the time of the Mambo => Joomla move, I quit.
A LOT of work has since then been accomplished in a short (internet) time, but a lot is still to do, as pointed out. So now *I* tell you: stop asking for docs, write them!

Well, here's the deal. I can't write documentation on something unless 1) I know it's there, 2) how it works and 3) how to use it. That's like telling some one who just bought a some assembly bookcase and having them write the directions for it. YEah, sure, we may know what we want it to look like, but if it weren't for that user manual, half the bookcases I've put together would come out looking like the one on the LeBlatt Beer commercial.... not what we want.

Once you have used the soft for some time, you simply can not think like the newbie and get back to the most basics things, because you have already learnt and internalized that knowledge. So it is really up to newbies to document the problems they encounter, and the solutions to them, in a way another newbie can relate to and understand, and pass on that wisdom!

AH-HA! That's EXACTLY what us noobies are TRYING to do in the forums.... but then when help is asked for, we get shoved off.

Coders should (and have started doing so; see the Devs part of the site) document the code and how to use it, that's a minimum to make extending the Core as easy as possible.

I *don't* want to extend the core.... I just want my stupid website up..... Some of the documentation is OK... and adequate for geting things rolling... IE, the loadmod function... plain and simple it displays modules that are marked for that "section". Great.... now, what I really need to know is how to create a module that will do XYZ. Next step searching the forums and spellunking through the plethora of results that come back.... It's disheartning. I tried searchign for a way to change the layout of the frontpage. What I found was an obscure reference.... on the second page I might add .... that if I clicked the "Home" link from the "mainmenu" in the Menu section of the admin, I could customize the frontpage some. Woah! Hold the phone... WTF was THAT in the documentation? Nowhere.... But that attitude from some of the posters was like it was obvious to them, it should have been obvious to the rest of us.

3rd party extension devs should indeed, I fully agree, document what they contribute. Emphasis on *should*, who is to telll them: hey, you gave me this great extension for free, now tell me how to use, where's the mannual? Coders are coders, anyone here can help document any part of J! or an extension they use.

I'm not going to get into 3rd party items.....but I will say this, if I'd never supplied any documentation to any of the add-ons I've built for other systems, I'd been strung up by my toenails.

Look for a faq, and submit a tutorial to explain the solution. I started writing some again in my own corner of the Net.. more to come. Now, up to you to contribute.

HOW? How do you expect me, the lowly user to contribute to something I know nothing about? All I can do is post to the forums, learn from there and hope that someone is watching and will gather the info into the documentation. That's how we've been doing it on another OS proj I'm a part of. We watch the forums, see where people are getting trapped, then write documentation on how to 1) not get in that situation in the first place and 2) if you get into it, how to get out.

As you say yourself "the problem in a nutshell: Writing step-by-step tutorials are very different from writing in general. Mainly, it's a lot less fun. It involves the kind of thinking most people would rather not do -- dumb thinking". So you demand people to think dumb and do things which are not fun to help you out..?

Actualy to do that kind of thinking requires some smart thinking. One has to think out of the box, I've got a QA dept that proves this point time and time again to me.

Why should they? Because they provide Joomla they also have to tell you how to use? They told you the issues are aknowledged, being worked on (be volunteers), and a manual is in the works, yet all you have to say is "docs are bad", over and over.. "The newbie with no background with cms's will not be up and running in a week." is false, I was, and I'm not a boy wonder ot whatever it was you called that, I was just interest enough to try things out, search the forums and various sites for information, and at that time, there were almost NO docs at all!

All hail boy wonder then.... I'm two weeks into this and NO closer to getting the site I want. Sadly the more I try to go through the forums to try and find the answers I need, the more discouraged I become and the more I question my decision to go with J!

At the time of Mambo 452 docs (which Joomla 1.0 was based on), it was decided the docs should describe the interface and it's functionality, and tutorials written by community members should cover the rest.

And that *should be fine....But as in the example above... even descriptions of the interface and how to simply get around in the admin area still has a ways to go....

There's always only so much you can do in the time you have to offer, but if everyone here picked up just one part / screen / step and documented that, everything would be done already.. nearing 30000 members.. but noone has to. But those who complain should.

Maybe I *should* dump J! Granted, I don't think anyone is expecting a color-glossie-paperback user manual.... But a Quick Start guide would be nice. Ok, the install directions were great. Easy to follow, got things running on my laptop in minutes. Cool. But now what? I'm left on my own. How do I get content into the site? How do I manage what goes on the front page (found that out by accident just clicking buttons)? How do I install a module, a component, or a bot? And content access... OK, I get "Public" I get "Registered"... "Special" - what does that mean, how do I control it? What if I want something listed to the public, but NOT registered member? IE, a welcome message to the site extolling the advantages of registering. Once the user is registered, I don't want them to see the message?

You complain about docs, to conclude Joomla is not user friendly. This is unrelated. A piece of software can be so easy to use you don't even need any instructions. If Joomla, or parts of it, fail in being that easy to use, then please
* point out which part(s)
* why, in your opinion
* how it could be better
To sum up: help us to help you

Here's a quickie - when the user clicks "submit news" and gets the editor. trying to navigate to anywhere else results in a nasty "Please click cancel first!" error. Why? Why can't the user just click away from that page?

[quote=∓quot;ricland"\]
Complaining is good. Going out for the college basketball team when you're  5'6" isn't. You're wasting your time and everybody else's.

Complaining about an open source program like Joomla isn't good, it's just plain rude and an offense to everybody who are giving their free time to the project.
[/quote]
Then be prepared, I plan to be scathing... if you can't take the heat, then this is not going to be the place to be.... anybody involved in anykind of project like this has to be able to handle criticism... good or bad.

[quote=∓quot;ricland"\]
Don't listen to the geeks who tell you there's nothing wrong with Joomla. Joomla is not for geeks. It's for dummies like me!

Thanks again for calling everybody here 'geeks'. Why is Joomla for people like you? Joomla is build by the community in combination with the developer team, Joomla is theirs. They made it what it is today and decide which way it is going to go. There is a lot of effort being done to make it better than it is today. We all know Joomla isn't perfect, but what is? I'm just happy that Joomla exists, and it does all these things for me. IMHO if a person can't have a running site within a week, they need support from a person who has done it more often.
[/quote]
What? Is J! only for geeks then? Only a geek should be able to use it? That hardly seems fair. I AM a geek (hear me type) and I find J! to be one of the most difficult products I have ever worked with (not the worst... that honor goes to the SMARTY template system). I AM that person who CAN'T get their site up in a week.... I NEED HELP... and that's why I started looking in to the documentation and the forums. And I still can't get what I want out of this thing.

[quote=∓quot;ricland"\]
Again, making Joomla "new and improved" is not what's needed. Drop everything you're doing. Throw away all your whiz-bang plans. Don't make Joomla better, make it easier.

I don't think people posting in the wishlist wishing for multisites, multilingual sites, SEO friendly, database support would agree with this particular statement . The CMS world is in its infancy, there are too many quick gaines before a CMS will become just another default technology.
[/quote]
All the bells and whistles in the world aren't going to amount to a hill of beans unless the AVERAGE user can't figure out how to make it work. As it is, I can't even figure out how to put more than three things on the front page (in a lyaout of my choosing).

[quote=∓quot;ricland"\]
This Joomla is not user friendly. Swallow your pride and admit this. I know it hurts like hell to admit this, but as they say in AAA, the first step to recovery is to admit you're a drunk.

Joomla is very user friendly. A user of Joomla is an editor who creates content for his site visitors, this is very easy. A person who builds a site is designing, a very distinct difference.
[/quote]
*scratches head* Umm.... but.... one uses J! to do part of the DESIGN!.... I've NEvER had this much trouble getting a site up and going. Disclaimer: here's a little bit about my self. I am a developer. I design and develop software for a living. It's what I do. I also do some web development. I've done a couple fo Xoops sites, static sites, an ecommerce site, my company's web page, and a half-dozen personal sites (last of which was done using WordPress). So it might be that I have a slight edge than Joe Smith out there.... so it infuriates me that I can't figure this out. That tells me that it's not as intuitive as it should be. In some parts of the admin, I have to click cancel to get out of a screen... other cases I can jsut browse away from that section. I am the designer and I am the editor... and I cant' make heads or tails out of most of what I am encountering. The design of a site using J! is very much integrated into the guts of J! I know that once it's set up and I get all the modules I want configured - basicaly once it's designed - then the editing and the content entry will be a snap. So in that sense, yes, for the edit, after all the hard work is done, it's easy.... but I have to GET THERE FIRST.

As I go through this more and more, I'm really begining to wonder if J! is even for me, of if I should resume my search and look for something else.

Oh, and I'm not even going to dinify the FrontPage remark by replying to that.  I won't stoop to FP's level.

-tg

[AmyStephen]

Maybe I *should* dump J! Granted, I don't think anyone is expecting a color-glossie-paperback user manual.... But a Quick Start guide would be nice.

Ok, the install directions were great. Easy to follow, got things running on my laptop in minutes. Cool. But now what? I'm left on my own.

How do I get content into the site?

How do I manage what goes on the front page (found that out by accident just clicking buttons)?

How do I install a module, a component,

or a bot? And content access...

OK, I get "Public" I get "Registered"... "Special" - what does that mean, how do I control it?

What if I want something listed to the public, but NOT registered member? IE, a welcome message to the site extolling the advantages of registering. Once the user is registered, I don't want them to see the message?

http://www.redevolution.com/component/o ... Itemid,41/

If you really read it - every single answer you have listed in the quote section in this post will be answered.

I realize being new is frustrating, everyone wants to help you. This resource and others on the FAQ have been mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately, people seem more interested in talking about frustrations and are missing the FANTASTIC quick start documentation there.

Read it -- PLEASE, I beg you, come back to this thread and tell us if that is not exactly what you wanted. 

Good luck; honestly. I've been there too -- six months ago -- there was less documentation then then there is now. I made it through. Trust me, I am not nearly as smart as the dudes who built this. And, I am *old*!!! You can do it. Just take time to read it.

[TechGnome]

http://www.redevolution.com/component/o ... Itemid,41/

If you really read it - every single answer you have listed in the quote section in this post will be answered.

I realize being new is frustrating, everyone wants to help you. This resource and others on the FAQ have been mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately, people seem more interested in talking about frustrations and are missing the FANTASTIC quick start documentation there.

Read it -- PLEASE, I beg you, come back to this thread and tell us if that is not exactly what you wanted. 

Good luck; honestly. I've been there too -- six months ago -- there was less documentation then then there is now. I made it through. Trust me, I am not nearly as smart as the dudes who built this. And, I am *old*!!! You can do it. Just take time to read it.

?? redevolution HOW in the world was I supposed to find THAT? (note: I haven't read it as of this posting) So what I'm hearing is that all this info IS out there... but it's OUT there.... and not centralized on the main J! pages..... -rolleyes-

I will read it though and let you know how it goes.....


-tg

[AmyStephen]

Thanks, tg!

Not to keep the flames fanned here, but, the FAQ was mentioned in this thread and the document link I gave you is listed as a hugely important resource LOTS of times.

The focus of this thread was unfortunately on the battle, not the help. I had to look really hard through your post to find questions -- and once I saw the questions, I realized you really want help. Sometimes, people just really want to kick someone's butt!

MMMedia, Tonie, eyezberg, Brad, Vimes, nathandiehl, I am missing people - sorry - ....these are the GOOD GUYS who will drop what they are doing to help. I try to help, too. So, read up and yes, please let us know. And, ask questions. If you are fortunate enough to get one of these people answering your post, dude, you are home free.

Anyway, good-luck!

[TechGnome]

Thanks, tg!

Not to keep the flames fanned here, but, the FAQ was mentioned in this thread and the document link I gave you is listed as a hugely important resource LOTS of times.

The focus of this thread was unfortunately on the battle, not the help. I had to look really hard through your post to find questions -- and once I saw the questions, I realized you really want help. Sometimes, people just really want to kick someone's butt!

MMMedia, Tonie, eyezberg, Brad, Vimes, nathandiehl, I am missing people - sorry - ....these are the GOOD GUYS who will drop what they are doing to help. I try to help, too. So, read up and yes, please let us know. And, ask questions. If you are fortunate enough to get one of these people answering your post, dude, you are home free.

Anyway, good-luck!

Ok... figured something out here..... From the main page.... if I click FAQ, then I start getting some info.... problem was I'd hit the site and click Help in the TOP menu, then try to get "help" that way.... there's nearly nothing.... I was trying too hard to get something from something that really wasn't there (yet any way). I'm sure that if I had found the "other" faq link on the main page, I probably wouldn't be in this thread  and I would be more  instead of  or  .....

Ok, I'm off to read that manual now and go spellunking some more through the new found FAQs.

-tg

ps - thanks for sticking in there with me.... sometimes I just need a good shove off a cliff.

[MMMedia]

ricland:

So, can someone tell me how to install a module and mambot without using zip files. Afterwhich can this information be placed in a central place so that other newbies won't have to waste days looking for it?

This is where this all started.  This isn't about basic documentation.  This is about someone that had a problem other than with Joomla.  They had a problem with their personally installed zip program.  It would be best if that is not forgotten in this rather lengthy thread.

ricland:

No instructions on how to install a template. No instuctions on how to install mambots, modules, components. No basic instuctions on how to make sense of the logic behind news items, newsflashs, it's just awful.

This is just plain not true.  But for ricland it was his truth because he couldn't use the instructions the way they were written.  An example has been made regarding instructions for a bookcase.  Well instructions usually do come with them, but if you don't have a screwdriver most likely it will be difficult. You could do it with a butterknife though, it might take some figurin on your part to do it.  If your friend also doesn't have a screwdriver and bought a bookcase you could help them do it with a butterknife because you have experience with it and you figured it out.

TechGnome you have said you have been working with Joomla now for a week or two and just can't get the design the way you want.  None of us have control over what you want, how fancy, how plain, how whatever.  You could have had a site up in a few hours if you wanted it just standard though I have no doubt.  You want some customization then your going to have to ask, read and learn, just like everyone else that wants something different than straight out of the box.  Let us know what you need, we'll be there.

I am no programmer, I don't know scripting hardly at all, I am pretty good at css, and I do know the fundamentals of good clean html, and I am really good at searching.  My journey with Joomla hasn't been at all difficult, other than when at certain times when I have wanted something to go a certain way, I searched, and if not found, then I ask on here on the boards, and usually it is solved within hours if not minutes.  Hey its free what more can I ask for.  The support I have gotten here has absolutely been 100% better than almost every commercial product I own. 

[AmyStephen]

You could have had a site up in a few hours if you wanted it just standard though I have no doubt.  You want some customization then your going to have to ask, read and learn, just like everyone else that wants something different than straight out of the box.  Let us know what you need, we'll be there.

You know, MMMedia, you are starting to get at the bottom of something that has been puzzling me. I think part of the problem is when people have an expectation that you can "do Joomla! in 24 hours." 

If you have only been after it for 2 weeks, then if a) you can spell the word Joomla!, b) you have a forum ID, c) you are excited, but nervous, d) you have some really fuzzy ideas about what you might do, well - then, you are at the top of your class!

This is not easy. It takes time. It takes patience. It takes a willingness to dig in. It takes perseverence. It takes desire. Sorry, what can I say? I have been in IT for almost 25 years. I know nothing new is going to be easy. But, for me, learning is fun! Just screw your attitude on right and it looks different -- feels better.

Hey its free what more can I ask for.  The support I have gotten here has absolutely been 100% better than almost every commercial product I own.

I am so very completely puzzled why everyone doesn't see it that way. Completely.

Ok... figured something out here..... From the main page.... if I click FAQ, then I start getting some info...

Ok, I'm off to read that manual now and go spellunking some more through the new found FAQs.

ps - thanks for sticking in there with me.... sometimes I just need a good shove off a cliff.

We all need shoving off the cliff from time to time. Thanks for your 100% turnaround on attitude. Now, your brain is in RECEIVING mode and you will learn. Good job. Thank you very, very much.

Ricland - DUDE!!! Join us in the pool. It's warm in here! You have a sharp, wit; you are intelligent; funny -- you are the kind of guy we want around. Read the tutorial. Stick with us. No-one wants to turn you away. There is nothing that you have said that is wrong -- it's just that we are trying to say "Yes, that's where it's at. If you want to keep learning, here's the best way we know how." Quit beating us up and join us. We will get there! K? 

[TechGnome]

Brain storm (actualy more of a slight shower) ... Would it be possible, I guess in the next release, on the last page of the installation, after all the "Congratulations, you now have installed Joomla!" if it would be possible to add something along the lines of:
"Now that you have sucessfully installed Joomla!, here are a few helpful links to help you get started." And then provide a link right into the FAQs, and one to the link Amy provided and any other links people have found helpful - like the template tutorial at Compass Design... It's a little late for me, but maybe we can save other poor soul yet to come along.

-tg

[AmyStephen]

It's a little late for me, but maybe we can save other poor soul yet to come along.

You are funny! But, we have not lost you. You are doing great!

I posted your idea http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg263535 in the Wishlists forum.

I think it was a GREAT brainstorm! Good job!

[MMMedia]

Brain storm (actualy more of a slight shower) ... Would it be possible, I guess in the next release, on the last page of the installation, after all the "Congratulations, you now have installed Joomla!" if it would be possible to add something along the lines of:
"Now that you have sucessfully installed Joomla!, here are a few helpful links to help you get started." And then provide a link right into the FAQs, and one to the link Amy provided and any other links people have found helpful - like the template tutorial at Compass Design... It's a little late for me, but maybe we can save other poor soul yet to come along.

-tg

It's never too late.. ever.  And you are getting it now, you are even making excellent suggestions!  I really like your idea.  If not on the last page of installation, (which is a great  idea) perhaps it can be put in as the content of the front page of the default install. 

[TechGnome]

Brain storm (actualy more of a slight shower) ... Would it be possible, I guess in the next release, on the last page of the installation, after all the "Congratulations, you now have installed Joomla!" if it would be possible to add something along the lines of:
"Now that you have sucessfully installed Joomla!, here are a few helpful links to help you get started." And then provide a link right into the FAQs, and one to the link Amy provided and any other links people have found helpful - like the template tutorial at Compass Design... It's a little late for me, but maybe we can save other poor soul yet to come along.

-tg

It's never too late.. ever.  And you are getting it now, you are even making excellent suggestions!  I really like your idea.  If not on the last page of installation, (which is a great  idea) perhaps it can be put in as the content of the front page of the default install. 

Or maybe in the Control Panel ... then it's a little more permanent than having it in the sample data or the installation screens.

-tg

[Apollo]

Brain storm (actualy more of a slight shower) ... Would it be possible, I guess in the next release, on the last page of the installation, after all the "Congratulations, you now have installed Joomla!" if it would be possible to add something along the lines of:
"Now that you have sucessfully installed Joomla!, here are a few helpful links to help you get started." And then provide a link right into the FAQs, and one to the link Amy provided and any other links people have found helpful - like the template tutorial at Compass Design... It's a little late for me, but maybe we can save other poor soul yet to come along.

A good idea and to tempered unreal expectation perhaps we can add: Take the time to learn Joomla basic. It takes about a week or 4 .

Quote
So, can someone tell me how to install a module and mambot without using zip files. Afterwhich can this information be placed in a central place so that other newbies won't have to waste days looking for it?


This is where this all started.  This isn't about basic documentation.  This is about someone that had a problem other than with Joomla.  They had a problem with their personally installed zip program.  It would be best if that is not forgotten in this rather lengthy thread.

Or the safe mode is on and the auto install won't work. I understand there frustration when they do not know or find the info how to install it manually.

[TechGnome]

I've posted a list of some of the resources I've found helpful in learning more about J! in this thread here: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg280443

Just incase any one is looking.

-tg

[MMMedia]

Thanks TG.  Glad to see you are still here! 

[howdwegethere]

I’ve just wasted way too much of my precious time reading this thread and I’m now going to waste even more replying, because I think there needs to be a stop put to this whining and complaining.

I think that all the active community members who have so graciously and patiently deal with ricland’s post do a disservice to the community.

In future I say we stop the thread with a simple message that says “We know there is a problem with Documentation; Our volunteer workers are trying to fix the issue; There are abundant resources and people willing to help if you are having problems; If that’s not good enough, we are sorry that the Joomla! Community is not able to satisfy your needs. This thread is now closed.”

I don’t know why I find these complaining, whining, ungrateful threads so compelling to read. I know I have wasted my time, MMedia, AmyStephen, brad, nathandiehl, Apollo, Tonie, eyezberg, Vimes and Scribe have all wasted their time trying to appease the complaints of one or two ungrateful, disrespectful newbies that spat the dummy when they couldn’t work the software straight off.

Hey ricland and TG, it was hard for all of us! But it’s not only free, it’s free. Take it or leave it.

I can understand that these very active community members with something like 12,000 posts to their credit are keen and willing to help newbies access the software, but you have to draw the line somewhere. You could have spent that time helping somebody that didn’t have bad attitude.

When I started with Mambo I knew very little about HTML, even less about CSS, I didn’t even know what PHP was and to this day I remain terrified of MySQL. That was over a year ago and I’m still not very far advanced in any of them, but I have four websites up and running.

We all know the documentation isn’t great and I feel really guilty that I haven’t helped out, but the last thing I’m going to do is get on here and dis the people who freely give their attention and countless hours to this community.

And while I understand the community’s wishes to avoid censorship, tell ricland to go use FrontPage - he’s probably a M$ plant sent here to make Joomla! look bad anyway - then get back to what you guys do best, helping people who want to be helped.

You're wasting your time tyring to help people who are not willing to help themselves.

IMHO 

[staffan]

I know Joomla is open source, but I still don't understand why basic information like how to install a template, module, or mambot is not provided in one central place.

As it is, it seems I have to do a search everytime I want to do something that's very basic.

And please don't tell me to "Post your question and somebody will answer it" that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about since we know everyone who installs Joomla will do basic things like install templates, modules and mambots, why isn't this basic information provided in one central place?

ric

I installed Joomla, some components, languages and got a site up in a weekend. Ugly but it worked. How id I do that as a total newbie to Joomla?
Well, I entered the administrator, selected, for example, the Installer for Components, and pressed HELP. Nice ikon, btw. And there was a basic instruction for installing components! I read it and did what i said, and it worked. So, ricland, did you ever read the help in the software?
Soon I discovered all the documentation on Joomla Help and my site got less ugly.

A step by step guide could be a good thing, and perhaps a tutorial. But I belive they already exists and are there to be read. But most of them are in english. A really good help for us non-engslish could be to translate some of the documentation, and perhaps also the administrator and it's help files.

[AmyStephen]

I’ve just wasted way too much of my precious time reading this thread and I’m now going to waste even more replying, because I think there needs to be a stop put to this whining and complaining.

Hey! I want to make a correction! A HUGE major correction. TechGnome turned it around. AND in the post two above you, returned after reading the documentation and contributed VERY HELPFUL information for others! This thread is actually an excellent example as to why we should keep trying to hang in there. It is just too easy to silence the voice. But, how do we learn, then?

The "closing of the thread" comment, IMO -- lets keep things open, please, and available for whoever has the patience to keep helping someone, and try to not be defensive but to learn from people. I really hate to see threads closed because "that is it! we have had enough. go away now!" I don't like that. Are we all adults here?

I mean I totally hear your frustration. But, it is pretty frustrating at this point for newbies. Let's face it! In six months, things are going to be markedly different. < note to self: return to evaluate prediction. >

Now, I really did laugh at your first sentence! Was that meant to be hilarious? You are going to complain about people complaining? That is something I would do!

Good discussion -- you gave much to think about. And, the point that you raise that is a good one -- while we are all wrestling a real frustrating problem to the ground, others who are trying to help themselves, use good interpersonal skills, clearly ask questions -- they are waiting. Good point.

[LorenzoG]

A step by step guide could be a good thing, and perhaps a tutorial. But I belive they already exists and are there to be read. But most of them are in english. A really good help for us non-engslish could be to translate some of the documentation, and perhaps also the administrator and it's help files.

I'm happy to hear that you have figured it how Joomla! works and that your site begin to look good 

You can find several very good tutorials like start guides, template guides etc for Joomla! written by our members and in different languages. Packt Publishing has now also released a book called Building Websites with Joomla!.

One tutorial (released in different languages) I can recommend is Netshines Joomla quick tutorial .... Ohh yes, you can find it in Swedish as well 

About translating the back-end and the help files.. this is something the different translating groups are working very hard with and something coming to the next Joomla! 1.5 release. You can find more information here:
http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/22/53/

[maphew]

If you see a need, why not help instead of just complaining?

Ricland is helping. He gave a clear and reasoned description of a problem and an outline, albeit roughly, of the direction in which a solution can be found. That is truly a gift.

If you see a need, why not help instead of just complaining?

I'd like to do that. How?