Discussion about : Joomla! 1.5 is on the Horizon ...

[sanni]

I recognize this as components have broken before with new releases.  In this case Peter has announced he will no longer be developing facile forms and so this is a pretty big loss for Joomla from my perspective. 

What I am trying to do is reconcile two extremes with the question.  I am guessing that as components are modified for 1.5 they will no longer be compatible with mambo or earlier versions of Joomla. 

[Asphyx]

Breakages are common in most upgrade situations especially when one of the components is no longer being developed. No development means they are not keeping up with the new ways of doing things...

Joomla in the past has managed to remain pretty painfree and good at backward compatability over the 1.0X series of releases...

Hardly anything that broke was not quickly fixable unless it was very very old and simply not supported by their developers anymore...

But we have to realize that this is not just any old upgrade we will be getting...

the main issue for most extentions will be can they operate under UTF-8 specs...
Extentions that properly made calls to Joomla to get work done will probably remain compatible...
Extentions that freelanced and made direct calls to the DB might have some problems!

And I'm pretty sure you can kiss goodbye any cross compatability between Mambo and Joomla...But that should affect Mambo more than Joomla since most of the developers write for Joomla and if it works for Mambo too then great! Many may still work...But even those that do I suspect will not work for long...Either because Mambo changed or Joomla added something else!

Trust me when I say if one component is no longer being developed and breaks that someone will attempt to either take over the project or start their own to get those services back.
Phil Taylor has said his form system will likely break too but he sells it and how many sales will he get if he doesn't update it to work with the newer vbersion at some point?

If one thing is for certain this update must be approached carefully and by the book!
You must not just throw caution to the wind and throw it on a live server even if it says STABLE next to the release...
You should run it on a test server first, install all the extentions you intend to use and need and run it through it's paces!

some packages will break it's a fact of software life but in the end with all the foundational work that has been done it should also be much easier to develop for and much easier to make a new extention that does work!

the Devs have said 80-90% backward compatability...That sounds pretty good...
even if it was only 50-60% it would be pretty damn good considering what they have opened up the system to be able to do easily!

This is not the first time that users of the Joomla/Mambo family of CMSs have faced these issues...
And we all survived it before we will survive it again!

[alexwalker]

Facile Forms is one of the best components we have. I am sorry to hear that Peter will no longer be devloping it for Joomla.

[Asphyx]

Just to clarify it's not that he won't develop it for Joomla he is just not going to develop it at all...
He has probably gone onto to bigger and better things....

I'm sure someone will pick up the torch where he left off...

[stingrey]

Backward compatability has been a goal in everything we have released as Mambo and now Joomla!.

Even for this release, there have been significant efforts to try maintain compatability as much as possible. 
For example there has been a significant amount of funciton renmaing and code refactoring, but support for old object and function calls has been retained.



Of course there is a certain limit to compatibility that can be achieved with such a major refactoring of the code. 

We are fairly confident that there should be about a 80% compatibility in 1.5, for example the fairly large Community Builder extension has only required a relatively small amount of refactoring to work with 1.5  However this has been helped by the fact that the development team of CB have made every effort to communicate with the Joomla! Core Development team.  In fact they have provided valuable compatability testing.  And we are more than willing to commnuicate with extension developers and try to address any concerns they may have with Joomla! 1.5, this was one of the reasons the `3rd Party Standards & Guidelines Working Group` was formed.



Ironically 'change` is one immutable parts of life , it is a constant that we must all deal with, even more so in the IT industry which moves at such an irresistable pace.

To achieve all the things that people want and need from Joomla! than the changes made are a necessary and essential.  The Development Team has worked to ensure that is as painless and as mininal as possible, but there is still some pain that will occur.

[shumisha]

For the sake of clarity, Peter did say that he will drop Joomla 1.5 support, but keep going on Mambo :

So the bottom line is that there are no plans from my side to create a special edition for Joomla 1.5

[rjschad]

Well

A few "horizons" have passed since the announcement.  Anybody have an educated guess as to how many more "horizons" will pass before the day dawns on Joomla! 1.5?

[adriand]

um... not to be impatient, but is Joomla going to break their april deadline?  if so, i guess their announcement was nothing more than an april fool's joke... bummer.

[a1tsal]

I am as impatient as anyone to see 1.5 beta, but I wish people would stop fussing about the date.

Look, this will be a beta, and given the amount that has been rewritten, it will be quite buggy.  Its value to users will be only as a feature preview.

It will probably take months after the first beta before there is a released version of the core.  And it may be months after that before most extensions are also fully debugged on the 1.5 core.

Chill out.  Forget about using 1.5 for production work.  1.0.x is a great thing; use it.  Someday there will be a 1.5 (and a 2.0, and...), but unless you are a developer there's not point in even thinking about them at least until there is a release candidate and the extensions you need are also close to final release.

[adriand]

I am as impatient as anyone to see 1.5 beta, but I wish people would stop fussing about the date.

Look, this will be a beta, and given the amount that has been rewritten, it will be quite buggy.  Its value to users will be only as a feature preview.

It will probably take months after the first beta before there is a released version of the core.  And it may be months after that before most extensions are also fully debugged on the 1.5 core.

Chill out.  Forget about using 1.5 for production work.  1.0.x is a great thing; use it.  Someday there will be a 1.5 (and a 2.0, and...), but unless you are a developer there's not point in even thinking about them at least until there is a release candidate and the extensions you need are also close to final release.

i understand the definition of "beta" and the time difference between a beta and a final realease.  however, you must also understand that  one does not want to develop on a platform that will change in the near (and somewhat defined) future.  would you want to do code-work that will only become obsolete, or has already been implemented into the base?  take a look at the facile forms forums and you'll see what i mean.

as an anecdote (sp?), I bought a dual processor powermac just *one* month before dual-core and several more before intel-dual-core-powerbooks-more-powerful-than-my-7-month-old-desktop.  now imagine if I spend more money on hardware components that were either included in the newer models, or incompatable?  you get the idea.

Joomla makes an announcement, I take their word for it, and I've been holding off development of a website simply because of the Joomla/FacileForms issue... the sooner we have a beta, the sooner I can choose whether to develop using FF or something else.

[hajonolte]

if you´re using JOOMLA for fun all the discussions about upgrading-problems and the final release-date is nothing more than thinking about whether to buy an ipod or not. i told my customers to wait until the end of april because of the new release. and so they are keen on getting the new version installed for them to do what they are used from the old versions: working without problems. and as i really want to satisfy my customers, i visit the joomla.org-website every day. and.........there are only a few hours left. so i for myself  think, that the core-developers should release the new version without telling it. (i am from germany and not very experienced in english. so...) if they state a date (end of april) they really have to release the new version at that date. and what is the worst thing: all the discussion about the possibility for upgrading from 1.0.8 to 1.5. yes, i really have in mind that the software is OS, but WHAT do I have to tell my customers??????

[CraterZ]

I too have been greatly anticipating the release of Joomla! 1.5 Beta. Although, unlike some of you, I am waiting patiently. I will not be using it on a productive environment, I will be quite content with using 1.0.x until 1.5 reaches final, or at least RC stage. Great things come to those who wait! It seems that there are those that are going to put a Beta software in use on a live/productive environment, I personally don't think this is wise, understanding that Beta releases are made available to people for testing purposes only in order to work the bugs out. So bugs in the software are only to be expected.

Why you would recommend to your customers to use a Beta release is beyond me .

Since I am new to here and to Joomla! I have been spending the time reading through the forums, and other areas of the site, figuring out how I plan on putting together my company website using Joomla! and the various available extensions. This has kept me quite busy in itself. Not to mention that I have also been checking out the available nightly builds (on a test location, of course).

I would rather that the developers take their sweet time and get things right, than be rushed to some deadline and make mistakes.

Just my two cents... 

[Asphyx]

To achieve all the things that people want and need from Joomla! than the changes made are a necessary and essential.  The Development Team has worked to ensure that is as painless and as mininal as possible, but there is still some pain that will occur

Yes Rey, and people have to understand that compatability relies on more than just the code and the functions used....
As I said previously extentions that properly call to Joomla functions to do work will usually remain compatible...
But there are plenty of extentions that freelance their own functions and bypass the framework you have put into Joomla and then all your attempts at sustaining compatability are for naught because they don't use the revised code, they then have to revise the code in their own project or make the call to the Joomla function properly like they should have from the get go!

I would rather that the developers take their sweet time and get things right, than be rushed to some deadline and make mistakes.

Amen to that!

[AmyStephen]

. i told my customers to wait until the end of april because of the new release..... i am from germany and not very experienced in english .... WHAT do I have to tell my customers??????

Hajonolte -

I feel bad because I think you might have misunderstood.

The latest information on software releases can be found on the Developer's site (button on top) on the Roadmap page. < http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/23/61/ >.

What the developers have been hoping, is that the first BETA version would be available by the end of April. BETA is the final testing cycle before the actual product is available for real people to use.

Also, on the Roadmap, the developers say "There is no set time period for these test periods but the Beta will not be less than three (3) calendar weeks." What this really means is that the beta testing period will be at least one month. But, depending on how things go -- it could go on longer than that.

The developers have not given us an expected date -- nor can they right now -- for the v 1.5 final release. There is just too many unknowns to predict that date at this time.

Also, you need to remember that this is a pretty big change. So, the third party developers might choose to wait until v. 1.5 is released before they start working on their changes. If you are using these types of extensions, there will likely be more delay while waiting for them to develop, test and trouble shoot their extensions.

As hard as this might be, it would probably be a good idea for you to simply tell your customers that you misunderstood what would be available at the end of April. That the end of April/beginning of May is actually the next testing version. The final version that has been proved to be correct and stable and safe for their use will not come for at least six weeks. But, the expected date of the final release is not known since the final testing has yet to begin.

Also, I am going to PM my friend Hackwar < Hannes > and make certain you two connect. Hannes is from Germany and he is very knowledgeable about Joomla! He would be an excellent person for you to talk to in the future so that more misunderstandings don't take place. < Plus, he's a lot of fun! >

It will all work out! 
Amy

[Tk]

As a fellow victim to the dyslexic habits, I belive AmyStephen  meant 1.5.0* in both instances that she mentioned above ^. Just incase. 

[AmyStephen]

As a fellow victim to the dyslexic habits, I belive AmyStephen  meant 1.5.0* in both instances that she mentioned above ^. Just incase. 

LOL .... I shall fix immediately! < wow. that could cause more confusion! > Thanks, TK...Amy

[HarryB]

I reallly so not understand all the complaining about Joomla 1.5 not meeting its projected release date.  Anyone who has been around software development for more than a few microseconds realizes that dates are missed more often than not.  Software development has been and continues to be an inexact science...sonme even say it is an art.

And this has been proven over and over again in both the open source and commerical worlds.  I personally  remember more software developement projects than not that I worked on in the past missing the projected release dates, although some were indeed declared done by default in order to meet schedule and cost goals   

[AmyStephen]

I personally remember more software developement projects than not that I worked on in the past missing the projected release dates, although some were indeed declared done by default in order to meet schedule and cost goals   

That is so true, Harry. The difference is  < for me, anyway > we could "declare it done" on a mainframe or centralized server when the major pieces were complete -- and then quietly continue finishing the work in a "maintenance" mode for years to come! These poor guys don't get that luxury! 

And, just to clarify your first sentence -- the end of April/May time frame was the projected "release date" for Beta not a projected "release date" for a final, customer version. 

I think that is the single biggest cause for confusion right now. 

[Asphyx]

Sometimes I wonder what people care about more....

Hitting a release deadline or a trouble free release?

Video Games use the former...marketing says the game has to go out on this date because all of our advertising starts then...
They release it and then for the next year and a half you wind up patching the damn thing 50 times just to get it to run!

And I'm not talking about squashing bugs I'm talking about actually finishing the program so it will start!

[PIP]

I reallly so not understand all the complaining about Joomla 1.5 not meeting its projected release date.

I don`t think it`s so much complaining... it`s more like waiting for christmas x 100... and it`s not so easy to be patient when you have a project waiting for the final release. But i rather wait a month or two extra for a more stable edition, than a to early release with allot of bugs. Then again... we may choose to do the work twise, starting with the 1.0.8 and then do it again when 1.5 and "partner" components are final.

[AmyStephen]

we may choose to do the work twise, starting with the 1.0.8 and then do it again when 1.5 and "partner" components are final.

That is the way to go unless you want to wait a couple of months! < And, don't forget, there will be a migration path! >

And, again, BETA is next for End of April/May timeframe. Not the final customer release.

So, continuing with your "Christmas" analogy -- it's like children sitting around the Christmas tree area at Halloween.  We've got awhile to wait, yet, folks!  You can sit there if you want, but, it's going to be a bit of a wait! lol 

[Asphyx]

Well consider this...If the beta comes out in the first week in may and stays beta for a month your talking maybe middle of June for a possible stable...

Not too far away when you think about it!

[djogon]

I guess the biggest issue here is not the pressure to release the beta within the certain timeframe it is simply the feedback given on the website. It is still stating that the 1.5 beta WILL be released in April 06. Chanced of that are unlikely and if  the beta will not be released in the next few hours - someone should go in and update the page.

It should say ...
- We do not know when, but sometime this year
- We hope it will be in May 2006
- We have no idea really - no promisses
- It will be released in the first half of May 2006

In other words ... Anything at all that does not say "April 2006"!

Any of the above is acceptable and understandable ... even the "We have no idea really - no promisses" one. We are all developers here - we know that some things simply cannot be rushed.

The sloppiness about updating the website and not giving any real feedback to the community is not professional to say the least. I hope that I will not be visiting the roadmap page in a month just to find the "April 2006" for the beta still there with no beta in sight.

Again ... dates will be changed, releases will be late, but 5 days ago someone must have known that the beta will not be released in April 2006. Decision not to share that information with the community is really disappointing and concerning.

My two cents.

[AmyStephen]

I guess the biggest issue here is not the pressure to release the beta within the certain timeframe it is simply the feedback given on the website. It is still stating that the 1.5 beta WILL be released in April 06.

It should say ...
- We do not know when, but sometime this year
- We hope it will be in May 2006
- We have no idea really - no promisses
- It will be released in the first half of May 2006

In other words ... Anything at all that does not say "April 2006"!

...even the "We have no idea really - no promisses" one.

I agree. As of right now, there is no reason not to expect the BETA within the next 24-hours. Perhaps that is the plan!

--> Hope you didn't feel you had to get a new ID to say that.

Amy

[brad]

--> Hope you didn't feel you had to get a new ID to say that.

Be assured this is not a duplicate account.

djogon, you make some good points, and we (Core Team) will get to updating the sites etc if/when we have the time and/or have more information. Volunteer projects, what can I say..

We're doing our best, as unpaid volunteers. We hope you enjoy the current stable version of Joomla though. No decisions were made not to share information with the community, we just have not had the time. There is nothing concerning about it, no conspiracy theories, this is just how free volunteer projects go.

[eyezberg]

This is not how they should go.
It really takes about 2 mins to update a date on the roadmap.
Maybe 10 to post an announcement.
Yet it isn't untill there's pressure from community members to update information that anything is done.
What about 1.0.9 where Rey's last post (April 5th I think it was) said something about 2 weeks..?
What about 1.5 currently?
It's all a big black information hole, noone knows anything, and accessing SVN when you don't know what is being worked on and what other ideas are around waiting to find their way into the code doesn't help either.
Why can't there simply be a (bi) weekly post on the dev blog: current 1.0.x status / eta / remaining.. and the same for 1.5? "No time" is no answer, sorry.
What'd you rather, answer lots of posts lots of times, or simply update every X days?
Everything djogon said has been a problem for years.

[AmyStephen]

No decisions were made not to share information with the community

I know and believe and have 100% confidence that is a true statement. In fact, that is what is so sad, to me!

There is nothing concerning about it, no conspiracy theories...

My Google search on this phrase "lack of information causes" rendered these results on page one, alone:

• individuals ... and their families to feel insecure;
• people are confused;
• society's downfalls;
• them to make an uneducated decision;
• several problems;
• anxiety, conflict and discontent;
• people to wonder.

As this baby Joomla! organization continues to grow, the ability to communicate effectively will get better and better and better. We have a most excellent group of developers and supportive, working community. Our core team is committed to us and we appreciate that very much. Please consider reviewing your procedures for updating the roadmap and try to build a little lead time in so that people do not get anxious.

this is just how free volunteer projects go...we just have not had the time

And please, never say these things again about keeping the timeline up-to-date. It is this kind of response that is < IMO, and I am *sorry* to say this > insulting and inflammatory. We do not need more of the feelings listed above. It would so amazing to hear, instead, we should have updated this sooner. That would be most excellent, and good enough!

Be assured this is not a duplicate account.

You cannot imagine how many email addresses I have to keep track of and how many IP addresses I use. I hope, Brad, that the person who posted this was, indeed, a first time poster. That would be someone who obviously has been in the community awhile, given their knowledge of our procedures and current status. But he or she has only been observing us and not participating in the forum. And, for some reason now, at this very moment, suddenly felt compelled to respond.

Everyone in the community should feel confident to express their feelings, provided they are courteous and respectful, without any concern for negative consequences. Apathetic people do not complain, they do not help and seldom do they even carry their load. Concerned, involved and caring people on occasion find they have to muster enough courage to step up to the plate and make the case that an improvement is in order.

[djogon]

Hello all,

I am sorry if I was reason for any "confusion". I am a first time forum user. The reason for that is simple. I am about to start a project that will be based on Joomla. The project needs the better language support of the upcoming 1.5 version so the question I asked myself was weather to wait for the beta to start the project or start with 1.0.8

The 1.0.8 seems like the right decision now, but had the beta come out within the posted timeframe - I would most likely use the beta.  This would be beneficial on two fronts. I wouldn't have to rewrite or migrate anything once it is out and stable ... two ... the Joomla community would have gained my reports during the beta.

So ... I am real ... newbie on these forums, but after waiting day after day for someone to update the status of the beta without success - I was compelled to write that note.

[shawn122]

anything with "beta" isnt meant for a live site at all   ;)
Go with Joomla! 1.0.8

[AmyStephen]

@djogon

No, you have absolutely nothing to be sorry for and you are not the reason for any confusion or problem whatsoever.

My sincerest apologies to you. Given the timing of your note and the fact that it was a first post, I was very concerned that an existing community member did not feel comfortable coming forward and expressing concern about the roadmap dates. And, in my unfounded belief, I no doubt made you, a new Joomla! community member, immediately feel uncomfortable. 

There is very little I can say to remedy my mistake except to offer you my sincerest apology and my assistance as you begin learning Joomla!. If you are starting a new project and you do not want to wait an indefinite period of time, I recommend moving with v. 1.0.8. The developers will provide a migration path so you will not lose any effort by starting with the current version.

Also, if you are new to Joomla! < and have not used Mambo > you will find the "Absolute Beginner's Guide to Joomla!" < http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,47524.0.html > very helpful. If you are unable to get answers in a reasonable period of time on the forums, feel free to PM me and I will try to help or find someone who can help you. 

Oh, and, welcome to Joomla! 99.999% of the time, this place is fantastic. Again, my sincerest apology for the embarrassment I might have caused you.

@Brad -

When will I learn you know *all things* on the forum? I have no idea why I would doubt your word as you would certainly have excellent information whether an ID was "real" or not. My sincerest apology for questioning your knowledge. I have nothing but respect, Brad, for your work in the forums and your obvious long-term dedication to the project.

Amy