Joomla 2.0

[eyezberg]

Any chance of adding a "Joomla 2" subforum to Tech Zone / Dev' Zone?
So as to start suggestions and discussions as early as possible, you know, define design before coding starts and stuff..? 

[stingrey]

We will do so at a later stage, well before coding starts.


However, at the moment 2.0 discussion is still at very high level discussions about exact coding framework - which is beyond discussions about functionality/feature discussions.
IE about class, function structures, File/folder structures, api framework, utiliziation of PHP 5 object oriented coding.

In other words this is very high end developer discussions.


Once the intial concept is in a workable state, it will be made available to the community for commenting and this is when such a forum will be opened.

[eyezberg]

This is just what I meant: initial coding framework is being talked about.

But BEFORE that, the purpose of v 2 should already be established: what exactly is to be coded, and for which target audience?
What I mean here is not the code design, but the user-centered design: which tasks is what user going to be performing with Joomla, and how to make it easiest for him. Key user profiles, goal statements for each, tasks they'd perform to meet these.

Right now, we now what works, we know what users are having trouble with, we know what to make better and what is missing to make for a perfect CMS. 4.5.X code is full of old legacy stuff, workarounds etc, so a complete rewrite is obviously the best solution. But: who will be using the end product?
All this is not at all about code. Power in Simplicity. Users don't want to know how it works, they want to use it.
Simple example: I want to add somethingto the Core, I have to know if it's a component, module, bot, or template. As a user, I just want to click "install", and the software then takes care of everything... Another: I want to create new content; I first have to set up a section, then a category in order to do so. Another: options of what to show/hide in various places for the same thing (show section title for ex.): item params, menu params etc..

Writing a new piece of software from scratch, based on existing ideas, just better, is a fantastic opportunity to get it just right and make it the best CMS ever -but you have to define for exactly what and whom before you start coding, not after.

[stingrey]

What I am trying to say is that current discussions are above even the consideration you list.

We are talking pure coding mechanics here.
Mechanical considerations and coding standards.

Things that apply to any type of project or any type of software purpose.



You are starting to discuss functionality, which is a few levels below current discussions.
Hence why I am saying that the team needs to time to finalize their higher level deliberations as functionality discussions easily distract from this important high level organizational work.

[eyezberg]

I understand that, just would've thought a team as close as this has already established those standards..
But I am not talking functionality, I am talking purpose and target of the new version, which is different. Not a feature list, just a simple mission statement: target audience and usage. Who will be using it, and to what purpose.
As far as I know, this was never really defined for Mambo, was it? We just kept adding cool features, responding to user requests, some want more blog features, other more newspaper, other more community etc etc ad lib, but there never was a clear, stated target and purpose for Mambo, other than "manage content simply". If you look around the wishlists on both forums a bit, you'll see lots of requests going in various different directions. As Joomla won't be able to perform well in ALL areas, it seems necessary to finally come up with something clearer as to where it's headed, why, and THEN (which is what you are refering to above) how.
You are speaking from a coders point of view, me from a users.
Sorry, can't make it clearer than that...

[stingrey]

I understand that, just would've thought a team as close as this has already established those standards..

Sorry cant make my point of view any clearer.

But since 2.0 is complete rewrite is that we can change currect practices to better standards, as currently are hands are tied by legacy code.

However, the largest determining factor is that it will be built on PHP 5 code, which contains more powerful obejct oriented functionality (and other improvements) which will change also current coding practices.

If you look at some areas of 4.5.3 code (and what is now 2.0), you will some already some changes in coding structuring and formating.


It is these architectural issues which need to be deliberated.

[eyezberg]

Let me try again:
I do not mean the design of the code (as you do), I mean the design of the human interactions. Not what Joomla does, but how it communicates, informs and behaves with the users. Backend code / functions are the same ones accessed by frontend processes, they get called internally, or from a mouseclick.
You as a coder understand the backend, know how the internals work, so it's easy for you to use the frontend.
A non-tech user has no idea about what goes on "in there", he just wants to use the product effectively and easily to get the tasks done which achieve his ultimate goal. So interaction design should take place before any coding, or even coding practices, to draft a document about this.

[stingrey]

Yes I do understand what you mean.  And it will be relevant and important after this work.


This is higher level coding architecture is beyond even the consideration you are referring to.
This is well before coding or even functionality discussions.


It not about what the house should look like or what should go in it.
This is about how you go about building a building.  The best practice for creating a wall, best practice for laying a foundation, etc
It is something that affects any building, not just a house.

[eyezberg]

Ok, all clear now on both sides it seems

Waiting untill you guys get ready to start planning whom you'll build the new house for and why.
After that, blueprints for floors etc can be made. Problem with software is, there is no group of different professionals getting together to do their best each in their own field of expertise; programmers mostly do it all: program and interaction design, and sometimes even docs