Self Promotion Moderation Objection

lobos · Post by **lobos** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:39 pm

oh my gosh... try to give someone a helping hand, ie point them to something (open source) that can provide a solution to something that the joomla core templating system cannot and we get this... :pop

Mod Note: Splitting this post and moving to Sites & Infrastructure - Feedback/Information -MMMedia

Post by **MMMedia** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:50 pm

Moved from: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,112928.0.html

brad · Post by **brad** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:53 pm

lobos, what part of that section of the rules do you need clarification on?

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:07 pm

Hi MMMedia,

You might have removed Lobos' post about his extension WTE. I might understand.
But you also removed my own posts where I was pointing out issues with templating in Joomla (how difficult it is) and trying to understand how to install WTE extension.

I do not understand why my posts are gone. Where are they?
Please put back my posts where I was indicating problems I encountered with WTE extension.
It is important for the users to be aware of those problems.

Further, to my problems with WTE, as well as not receiving specific answers from its author to 3 specific questions,
I found out that finally yes WTE for somes reasons is incompatible with Joom!Fish. Unfortunately.
But it took me a lot of efforts to pinpoint the problem.

Before my third attempt to install WTE, I removed all components and WTE finally installed.
But as soon as I reinstalled Joom!Fish, nothing worked on WTE's side.
Yes I am using Joom!Fish because I have to manage multilingual sites.

So, be warned in advance about these incompatibilities which are not mentioned anywhere else.
And please do not remove posts from users that are having a hard time with some extensions.
Everyone should benefit from those posts, even if they demonstrate problems or incompatibilities within Joomla.

Those things happen...

Thanks,
Jean

Post by **MMMedia** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:29 pm

Jean.. there are other forums that deal with extensions. Namely the Components http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,39.0.html , modules http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,40.0.html , and mambots/plugins http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,41.0.html  forums. You can also review and vote for extension directly on the extension site. http://extensions.joomla.org/

The entire thread regarding WTE was off topic and had to be removed. Please note the rules of the forum for more explanation regarding off topic threads. http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... tml.  It would make no sense to remove half of the off topic posts and then leave other off topic posts.

Thank you for understanding.

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:53 pm

MMMedia,

The extension discussed here had to do just with templating. So this was ALSO the right place to discuss this.

Also, I was NOT promoting WTE extension at all since I was not even able to install it for some time.

I am particularly angry as I think you deleted my posts because there was SOME criticism towards Joomla management of extensions in general. Those problems are a reality which will have to be dealt with one of these days.

If the Core team cannot hear users complaints, please tell me how they will be able to further improve this product without users inputs.
???

Is there CENSORSHIP here?

Please put back my posts where you think they belong.
If you really thought they were in the wrong place, it would have been considerably more polite to move them to the place you thought was most appropriate. BUT NEVER DELETE users posts unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. That is totally against the rules here unless comments were totally inappropriate. Which was not the case at all.

Sorry for the noise, but I think you might now understand that what you did is not ok per standards.
You went too far.

Until further action, I will wait for you to move back my posts where they belong.

Angry Joomla user now... >:(

Jean

lobos · Post by **lobos** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:55 pm

MMMedia wrote:Jean.. there are other forums that deal with extensions. Namely the Components .....

The entire thread regarding WTE was off topic and had to be removed....

Don't you mean moved? Why is it that you remove posts about WTE, yet move other posts? Why not give a friendly warning and tell us to move the open source section. A few people spent considerable time creating their observations and you just come along and wipe them, I think that was quite rude...

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:10 pm

I am sorry.

I have to totally agree with Lobos last comments.

Even though, I had difficulties with Lobos' extension and was a little critic, we were trying to work things out.

Please UNDELETE our posts and just move them where you think is most appropriate.

MMMedia, this is really a rude way to do forum moderation by simply deleting posts.

Although I was a newbie here, I have never seen such a thing in twenty years.

Jean

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:14 pm

MMMedia,

This is totally INAPPROPRIATE.

I am sorry for seeing what you are doing.

I have never seen this before and will definitively have to report this to your management.

Post by **MMMedia** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:14 pm

Jean, we cannot allow self promotion to go on on the forums or it would be chaos. Please understand this. Joomla! is not the support forum for WTE, please take your questions regarding how it works or doesn't work to the WTE forums.

This is not censorship. It is trying to enforce the rules of the forum, to make the forum a place that is good for everyone.

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:17 pm

So MOVE our previous posts back here.
Don't delete our posts.

Where are our posts from this weekend

This is extremely rude.

lobos · Post by **lobos** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:20 pm

mmmedia is constantly deleting, my and a few other's posts in the templating forum, I am not sure why as they don't seem in conflict with the terms and conditions or is it a term and condition that you do not question the moderator's actions in anyway??? We are only asking why she deleted posts which we spent considerable time creating instead of moving them, or giving us a chance to save them.

She is now deleting without a warning or reference to the conditions that we have violated. Is this the way to treat your users? Comon we are all batting for the same team, aren't we?

Here are the posts - excuse the formating becuase I have just copied and pasted, please tell me why there are in violation of the terms and conditions:

I am posting here becuase this forum is not moderated by mmmedia and she won't be able to delete it.

jeanh
Newbie
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Posts: 2

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Re: Dreamweaver template in design view
« Reply #7 on: Today at 07:53:14 AM »
Reply with quote
MMMedia,

The extension discussed here had to do just with templating. So this was ALSO the right place to discuss this. Shocked
Also, I was NOT promoting WTE extension at all since I was not even able to install it for some time.

I am particularly angry as I think you deleted my posts because there was SOME criticism towards Joomla management of extensions in general. Those problems are a reality which will have to be dealt with one of these days.

If the Core team cannot hear users complaints, please tell me how they will be able to further improve this product without users inputs.
Huh

Is there CENSORSHIP here?

Please put back my posts where you think they belong.
If you really thought they were in the wrong place, it would have been considerably more polite to move them to the place you thought was most appropriate. BUT NEVER DELETE users posts unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. That is totally against the rules here unless comments were totally inappropriate. Which was not the case at all.

Sorry for the noise, but I think you might now understand that what you did is not ok per standards.
You went too far.

Until further action, I will wait for you to move back my posts where they belong.

Angry Joomla user now... Angry
Jean

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Re: Dreamweaver template in design view
« Reply #8 on: Today at 07:55:44 AM »
Reply with quote Modify message
Quote from: MMMedia on Today at 07:29:14 AM
Jean.. there are other forums that deal with extensions. Namely the Components .....

The entire thread regarding WTE was off topic and had to be removed....

Don't you mean moved? Why is it that you remove posts about WTE, yet move other posts? Why not give a friendly warning and tell us to move the open source section. A few people spent considerable time creating their observations and you just come along and wipe them, I think that was quite rude...
Report to moderator 201.54.226.35
JChat - Advanced AJAX Powered Chat Component - http://www.jchat.nvida.net
The FREE GPL Webvida Theme Engine (WTE) - Smarty Templating Power for your Joomla Website.
50 free WTE Joomla Templates.
http://www.themes.co.nz

Post by **ChiefGoFor** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:21 pm

Three threads merged.

Topics: 113681, 113677, and 113495.

lobos · Post by **lobos** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:23 pm

YAY we got the post revived! See, one must always question authority!

And I stress again: We are all batting for the same team and I hope we can put all of this behind us

edit

Unforunately the detailed observation posts made by Jean were not..., these were invaluable to me and probably a considerable investent in his / her time

lobos · Post by **lobos** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:26 pm

Thanks, but I failed to save the stuff Jean said about WTE, I need this becuase it addresses a few issues with WTE that will need to be addressed. Anyway Jean, if you find the time could you place a summary of your concerns at my forum (the link is in my sig). Thanks.

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:28 pm

Brad,

This is non-sense.
I have never seen this before.

I am a normal user.
And Lobos is an extensions developer guy trying to help a normal user.

Brad,
Can you tell me why MMMedia deleted not only Lobos posts but MINE too??
And why she did NOT simply move them to another thread?

And why in this world it was not done politely?

Post by **ChiefGoFor** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:38 pm

Moving thread to "Sites & Infrastructure - Feedback/Information" board.

Merging with Topic: 113495

Also Renaming the title of topic "113495" to something more appropriate.

Post by **ChiefGoFor** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:00 pm

Brad is probably asleep right now and will not return for at least 6-7 hours. So, I will try to answer. (NOTE: this is my opinion and not Brad's or anyone else's)

ChiefGoFor's Investigation reveals this:

Originally, Jaz posted a questions about "Dreamweaver template in design view". Lobos chimed in with the following (now deleted post):

One solution - The Webvida Theme Engine (WTE). WTE allows you to code you templates in pure (x)html without needing to include php which is causing incompatibilies with DW. With WTE you create your template in pure html and after you happy that it is finished you just add the smarty tags. Easy Peasy

That, right there, is Self Promotion and is a violation of the forum rules.

So, to keep in line with the forum rules, the post had to be deleted. The only catch to this is that, the self promotion was followed by a string of support on installing and working with the extension. So, to keep the post readable, they were removed as well. I know it sounds harsh, but technically, that makes all those posts off topic. Personally, I know it stinks, but most moderators would (and should) have done the exact same thing. Please do not make Jenny out to be a bad moderator. She is only trying to enforce some rules. If not, then chaos would run crazy and everyone would be promoting their own product. Then were would the community be? It would be one large advertisement for anyone who thinks they can code (I am not referring to Lobos here at all. Lobos is good at what he does).

If you have questions on WTE, please post a thread in the Components board asking your question.

I hope this clears things up. Also, if I have missed anything, please let me know.

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:08 pm

Sorry to say.

This does not excuse anything whatsoever.

I personnally never seen this in my whole life.

I have been in the software industry for 20 years. Yeah I am old enough to tell what is ok and not ok.
20 years with Open Source in all sorts of endeavours. Started using Linux on day 1 of the first beta release.
So you guys are kinda still learning...

So yes the way this was handled in your forum just shows immaturity.
For you to cut people conversations like this is unreal.

If you want to do a good job, then I would suggest that Joomal starts doing its own cleaning up in the extensions area.
And not people posts that are legimate.

As for what you say, self promotion on Lobos part, I defintively disagree as he seems to provide a good free service to the community.

Geezzz what a mess.

P.S. Now keeping a copy of everything so I can show some other people how rude the world can be sometimes.

Complete excuses are expected.

lobos · Post by **lobos** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:14 pm

Yeah I see now, thanks for clarifying, I understand that you don't want the forums to become a craigslist!...

As a suggestion, why not have a trashbin thread for posts like these, ie keep them in the bin for 24 hours or something then delete. I ask this because the data can then be saved by those who posted it - it can get real frustrating when you have spend a lot of time putting a thread together and then have it deleted on you (In Jean's case). This will also take a bit of heat off the moderators as I am sure this discussion wouldn't have come about if we could have accessed those deleted posts.

I also agree with with Jean about the impolite way in which it was carried out, but the real problem is the deleted data, this is some minutes of someone's life gone to waste and that is a shame...

Jean, I am working on a new release of WTE and I will take into account the issues that you rasied (what I remember) so keep an eye on my site for the next few days.

-Lobos

Post by **ChiefGoFor** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:19 pm

@ Jean - Point noted. Thank you for that information. I will see to it that the forum admins are aware of this thread and your points.

@ lobos - We do have this feature set up. If any user who's thread was deleted wished to have the contents emailed to them, I would be glad to do so. This is how I got the quoted post of yours above.

I am sure that both of you agree that this issue has kind of gotten out of hand. If there is anything I can do to rectify this (within reason), please let me know (for instance, digging up old posts).

Thanks!

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:30 pm

Lobos,

Even if I may have criticized your extension a little bit...
I am sure it could be a great extension for many as you have invested so much time on building it.
Anybody will be able to see the enormous investment you have put in there. I did see some of your Smarty development.

Even though it does not work for me yet in Joomla, since it is not compatible with Joom!Fish.

Yeah... I am going to HELP YOU if I can.
I run two businesses.
One in Montreal Canada - the guy from Joomla is from there too...

hello???
and one in the South of France... mostly working on CMS and osCommerce projects.

And say NO to human stupidity as I have seen today.
It makes me so very sad.

Geeezz, I just can't believe at what level people can bring us down sometimes.

P.S. I asked 2 or 3 times the moderators MMMedia to UNDELETE my posts of this weekend and to put them in THE appropriate place as she may have thought better. Nothing was done yet.

And Brad did not care to respond yet.

I will intervene again in these forums but no before a long time..... or unless really necessary. This is a real shame.

"Je ne comprends pas pourquoi, on arrive à faire des choses pareilles.
Louis Landry, j'espère que tu as vu tout ça."

[Global MOD Edit: forum rules state:

All posts must be in English, unless posted in a specific international forum. If posting in a international forum, please use the language of that forum, and not English.

For the record, the english translation according to Babblefish is: "I do not include/understand why, one manages to make similar things. Louis Landry, I hope that you saw all that." ]

Jean

Post by **ChiefGoFor** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:03 pm

Please discuss any collaboration that you wish to pursue off of the forums (or through PM). thank you!

jeanh · Post by **jeanh** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:05 pm

And now, you start getting stuff like this. I cannot believe what I am reading today.
I just hope one of you wakes up to stop all this soon.

Look at this now (something I just received - who is this mysterious guy sending out personal messages like this and not fully understanding the issues:

You have just been sent a personal message by kidsphoenixx on Joomla! Forum.

IMPORTANT: Remember, this is just a notification. Please do not reply to this email.

The message they sent you was:

Forum rules are Forum rules..... if you don't like them/agree with them....take your questions elsewhere....simple as that.
You were ( repeatedly) given an explanation...politely and respectfully....yet you repeatedly treated the Moderators with rudeness and even personal criticism.
Boquets to the Moderators.......brickbats to you.
w

RESPONSE:

You're joking.
I never treated moderators with rudeness. Please read again all posts if you have time...
Although the contrary applies. From the start, deleting someone's posts, THAT is RUDE.

Not the other way around.

Thanks for letting me clarify.

And please leave me alone. Other better things deserve my time and attention THAN this.

Jean

P.S. Fully saved for later appreciation by users on the web

Post by **MMMedia** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:09 pm

Just a note jeanh:

Brad is not replying because he is asleep - as has been explained to you before.

Post by **ChiefGoFor** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:11 pm

jeanh wrote:Look at this now (something I just received - who is this mysterious guy sending out persola messages like this and not fuly understanding the issues

If you wish us to look into this, please use the "Report To Admin" feature when viewing the PM. I apologize for that, even though we had nothing to do with it.

brad · Post by **brad** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:20 pm

Ok,
I'm awake now.. but I still fail to see what all the screaming is about. lobos has been warned before for self promoting WTE and posting links to their website. WTE is a commercial site, offering a few free products, please stop posting links to your own site lobos. If anyone needed WTE support, they need to seek it on the WTE website, or post in the correct forum.

jeanh, do you have you threads you wanted, ie the content of them.

If so, are we ok to close this thread now? It all seems quite a bit of hype over a small issue to me.

lobos · Post by **lobos** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:05 pm

brad wrote:WTE is a commercial site, offering a few free products,

More free products than commercial ones... the WTE site revolves around a purely open source product which is incidently called... WTE... (don't forget the 50 free templates as well!) in fact if you want to get picky you could say that anysite with google adsense could be classed as commercial. But anyway, I was just trying to help someone, but it seems this upsets the "little rulers of this little kingdom" so I will go back to doing what I do best, ie creating OPEN SOURCE CODE (much more constructive IMHO than OPEN SOURCE POLITICS)!

Kindest regards,

Lobos

Post by **infograf768** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:00 pm

I'll take this as a yes and close the thread.

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