Viewing the Who's Online List

[AmyStephen]

The "Who's Online View" < http://forum.joomla.org/index.php?optio ... action=who > now returns an error of "Sorry - you don't have the proper permissions to View the Who's Online list." This used to be hyperlinked to the count of Users and Visitors online.

I understand there are issues on the boards the forum admins are trying to deal with (for example, the disposable email addresses.) So, if this was intentional, I am certain there is a good reason.

It seems in an open source community we *want* to remove barriers to interaction and deeper involvement. The more we can do to bring people together and encourage them to collaborate, provided it's friendly, is good. This option, IMO, was helpful in that regard. If it was purposefully removed, I hope that it is reconsidered.

Thank you,
Amy

[brad]

Thanks for your inquiry.
As you correctly observe, we have disabled the "Who's Online" list. This is to prevent, sadly, users of our community being as good as stalked as they browsed and replied to threads here on our forum.

The disabling of this IN NO WAY AT ALL discourages participation or friendliness, to the contrary it forces a more friendly atmosphere upon people who feel that they are times are being followed around as they browse/post on our forum.  Members who are currently online are still visible on the frontpage, so I really can't see what the big deal is.

Sadly, due to our popularity, we are a huge target for trolls, spammers and others who have nothing better to do than to waste their time (and ours) harassing our members. Consider the disabling of this list to be a proactive step to protecting everyone around here.

Thanks to everyone for their continued support of Joomla and their cooperation with the forum administration.

[AmyStephen]

I figured there was a problem you were trying to solve, sadly.

It is ridiculous some of the problems you guys are facing. And, yet, shutting things down does indeed discourage participation in that it says everyone has to "pay the price" for the problems caused by a few. I guess that's the best way I can explain it from the "outside looking in." I also think that a sense of "more control" will cause more attacks from the troll crowd. I read your Wikipedia link and it is concerning, Brad, it worries me. I don't know how you validate who people are. I wish people would be more open and I wish we did a better job resolving our conflict.

So that you know, there were positive benefits to that option. One example was it provided an indicator of the volume of people working on the upgrade, or searching through security threads trying to figure out the register globals, etc. In fact, the announcement of v 1.0.12 was the reason I noticed it missing, I wanted to see who was looking at those posts. For those who honestly mean well, it helps us help people. I just wanted to share that since you frequently deal with the "dark side." There are indeed a majority of us who want to do the right thing and we try to use the tools available for the benefit of the community.

It seems the forums are good for basic support - but, given this "bad behavior," the forums are turning out not to work as well for other types of community building activity. I was moved with Eben Moglen's speech < http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ,33/p,239/ > and how he talked about the power of open source to help people and how it's not about the software, but it's about the community.

I wish we could figure out a way to talk about those things here. But, sadly, I think you are right about this place becoming a target for trolls, spammers and negative people. It is nearly impossible to have a meaningful conversation in these forums without things turning ugly.

IDK. It is stupid. I honestly understand your reasons and appreciate your response. I am just sharing my thoughts on this and it should not be considered an attack on your decision, nor does it require a response. I recognize I only see a small portion of what you deal with and that, alone, is pretty discouraging sometimes. 

Your welcome for my inquiry.    Happy Holidays to you who run a very smooth forum for us. Thanks.

[ibnhafsun]

Hi, Brad. I understand your concerns about our privacy but, if our privacy is important for you, we should know who is allowed to see our actions (global mods, mods, working groups members?) now and why.

I will miss that feature. I used to surf the action=whos to get some valuable information, not only if a user, ie, had seen a message, but some information about the spanish-speaking users (people reading spanish topics), the hot topics, etc...

I don´t know if this is possible (add some more statistics to the general statistics) but it would be a nice resource.

[ibnhafsun]

mmmmmmmmm...

I have an answer (just got one, but you know, sometimes it is hard to get information here, may be I am missing some posts or articles).

Only has been disabled for the simple users (like me).

So not only the forum mods but any other working group member can see what I am doing. "Stalk" and "harass" are heavy words, I don´t understand how can I feel stalked or harassed by someone looking at the who´s online feature. But you do, so I can be stalked and harassed by a lot of people, some working to keep the forums safe, some more worried about their websites, some working to make Joomla! a better app, some just trying to get some content to publish and gain more visitors, some trying to help the community, some trying to "copy-and-paste" the forum posts in their own forums without giving any credit, some...

Do you want to protect us or to keep things aside the simple users? If you really want to protect us, make the feature available to the ones that need it (the mods) or, please, explain me why some of us need it and some don´t (does a developer need it? a translator? a documentor? who? why?).

PS: doj is offered if needed.

[AmyStephen]

Rafa - I agree. I wonder if there is some other way to deal with the specific problem the forum admins are trying to deal with. IMO, it is not heading in a good direction to create a division in forum authority levels. It's silly. I keep wondering what kind of community we are becoming when we can't trust one another with a "Who's online" list. 

Personally, I head more and more the other direction towards openness. I have nothing to hide and no reason to fear someone reading anything I have written or knowing where I am posting or what I am looking at. Who cares? Log my actions and make these available for everyone to see. I have nothing to hide!

Anything I write here I intend to be public. Frankly, anything on my personal blog is blasted full article into RSS feeds and can be read in dozens of places without my being aware. Anyone who want an IDs to blog along with me is welcome to come right inside of my blog. All of my comments on other websites are written to coComment and made available on my blog. My Flickr and Delicious stuff - open. I use my real name and it would take about five minutes for anyone to figure out how to snail mail me a letter.

I think if people are paranoid and feeling stalked here in the forums, it might be time for a little forum siesta. But, let's not reduce the capabilities of the forums for the common person because of these fears. What exactly is the fear? Very odd, a sign of burnout, don't ignore it.

We need to find ways to engage the community more, not silence and blind them.  I am sorry, but, this is just silly and discouraging. We are all on the same team. Or, at least, so I thought. 

[brian]

As someone who has been (and is being) stalked I appreciate this

[ibnhafsun]

Well, brian, I don´t share your feelings but I will try to do and, if someone feels like being stalked then it is a good reason to shut down that feature.

What can I do if I feel stalked by a working group member? How can I know if I am being stalked by a working group member?

"To shut down that feature"... to whom? I am not an expert about forum moderation but it would be nice to keep things as simple as possible. Who really needs that feature? The global mods? Nice.. Someone else? Why?

[AmyStephen]

Brian -

How are you being stalked? How do you know you are being stalked? Do you feel you are in danger? Have you notified the person who is stalking you to stop? Have you notified the authorities? How does removing this one forum option from everyone else make you feel safer? 

If someone wants to review your posts, they can click your name and look at your previous posts. Or, they can use the search feature to look at your posts. Or, they can look at Google RSS feeds. Or, they can Google. Are we going to continue down this path and shut down all capabilities? Are we saying it is WRONG to look at someone's posts?

Do you have this option available to you? I know you to be one who pays close attention to what I post and has turned me in on NUMEROUS occasions to the moderator team. Should I feel stalked by you? I just thought you didn't like me. I could care less who reviews my posts. Go for it!

Honestly, this is ridiculous! Where is this community heading?

Amy

[brian]

Amy you must be feeling guilty. I never said anything about you or any other individual

[AmyStephen]

Re-read carefully, Brian. Read all of the words this time. I don't give a hoot about what you post or when you are on or what you do. If you feel I am stalking you, you might be suffering from narcissist grandiose fantasies.

Just kidding around. 

[brad]

I'm amazed at the *passion* that this MINOR change has brought up. Why was this particular list so important to you two people?

.. and just for the record, statements like:

Honestly, this is ridiculous! Where is this community heading?

and

It is nearly impossible to have a meaningful conversation in these forums without things turning ugly.

Are totally untrue and nothing but a personal opinion.

Speculate as to why this feature was turned off please? You must know more than me. And why are so few people complaining about it, and why SO MUCH complaining.. I'm shocked.

Can you see who is online at any given time? Yes.
Can you click on their profile? Yes.
Can you search/view their past posts? Yes.

ONE thing has been removed, the ability to view the current, real-time, action of a member (ie what thread they are viewing or posting in, or if they are reading or replying to a PM). Why is this just so important to be able to do?

I know I am going to regret asking these questions, but if you must, please keep your replies brief and to the point, I'm a simple man.

[ibnhafsun]

Well, brad, tell me...

1) What can I do now to know how many users are browsing spanish topics?
2) How can I know what topics are hot topics today?
3) How can I know if a website is tracking my posts?
4) How can I know if a user has seen a topic or a pm and act in consequence?

1) I can´t.
2) I can´t.
3) I can´t, but the website owner can if he is a working group member.
4) I can´t. No more pms, no more post and wait if someone is copying the FAQs, just shot, lol.

I told you why it is important for me. Are you going to answer my questions?

a) Should we know who is allowed to see our actions (global mods, mods, working groups members?) now and why?
b) Is it possible to have more statistics?
c) What can I do if I feel "stalked" by a working group member?
d) How can I know if I am being "stalked" by a working group member?

As i said, I can live without the feature, really, even more if only a single member of the community feels like being "stalked". But I want to know who can do it with me and why. If Brian´s privacy is important, my privacy is important too. That´s all. You try to protect us, that´s right and I can understand it. Do it: give the feature to the ones that need it instead of shutting it down only for the simple users like me.

A simple thing for a simple man. Keep things as simple as possible, Brad.

[brad]

a) Anyone who is bound by the CoC here: http://dev.joomla.org/content/view/44/69/
b) It's on my long wishlist of forum/smf additions.
c) Report it to admin, who can monitor the situation.
d) How did the who's online list help you do this before?

As for your first questions, you can't view the entire who's online list on one page anyway, it's usually about 25-30 pages worth, so it's highly unlikely that you can use this to:

1) What can I do now to know how many users are browsing spanish topics?
2) How can I know what topics are hot topics today?
3) How can I know if a website is tracking my posts?
4) How can I know if a user has seen a topic or a pm and act in consequence?

..unless you know the topic or user to search for, and even so, browsing 30 pages of data that changes by the second is not very effective.

[AmyStephen]

As you correctly observe, we have disabled the "Who's Online" list. This is to prevent, sadly, users of our community being as good as stalked as they browsed and replied to threads here on our forum.

Oh for crying out loud! No one was speculating why it was turned off. You said why it was turned off!

"You two people?" What is that?  That is enough disrespect. I know Rafa cares very much Joomla!, as do I. Please be kind. Please.

If I have been disrespectful or untruthful or unkind, then, I am very, very sorry. I have only offered my opinion; the quotes you have copied could not even be spoken as a fact.

But, this has to stop. You ask why only two raise the issue? Perhaps because of responses like this that people have been conditioned not to talk - many have wandered away. It is completely ridiculous that merely asking questions and voicing concerns turns into this type of "Daddy comes home at night and we are all in trouble." We are adults. Presumably, we are all working towards common goals and hopefully, each of our perspectives might be helpful in that regard. It is in that spirit that I offer my comments.

Shutting off capabilities to the community because we cannot trust them is IMO a very bad sign. Furthermore, it is illogical as it has not prevented the very action that you indicated you hoped would be prevented.

Perhaps we need to engage the community in brainstorming solutions to these problems so the forum administrators are not put into a position of policing the community and developing new rules, but rather enforcing commonly agreed upon guidelines. This does not need to be a "we versus them" thing - it needs to be a "we" thing.

Now, please! Do not force me into a position of arguing against you. I am not against you. I appreciate your dedication and your efforts. I just do not agree with some of your decisions, Brad. If people are willing to share their difference in opinion with you it can mean they respect you and care about this community. You can absolutely take it to me that in my case. A difference of opinion does not equate to an attack. I realize you have given a lot this year and have carried more than your share. I have tried to be supportive and I am supportive of your efforts!

But, given recent trolling and your posts on temporary IDs, and now you are indicating people are feeling stalked in the forums, well, I am afraid implementing more control will increase these attacks as I suspect these are people (person?) who feels alienated and angry. We need bridge these gaps, not further divide.

All of the above is my opinion. Why? Because I care!

I am a woman; I am not simple. I will not apologize for WHO I am, just if I have caused you trouble and not helped, in return.

[brad]

Interesting.. however I'd like to suggest the reason so few people have noticed is that it was not a feature that many used or feel the need to use.

Anyway, looks like my posts in this thread have now come to an end... without specific replies to my question about exactly how this feature was used, I can't see any point in continuing this discussion.

Take note though, before you make sweeping statements about how we/me is harming and discouraging participation, that another reason people may not be posting in this thread, might simple be because they do not care or use this feature. What is most important is for us to continue to provide SUPPORT for Joomla and Joomla users as best we can. The who's online list does not prevent or hinder the ability to do this.. not as far the reasons you have given for being so upset. Just look at the amazing resource, friendly and cooperative that this forum has become. Thanks to everyone for playing their part.. except the who's online list

It is nearly impossible to have a meaningful conversation in these forums without things turning ugly.

Only you are reporting this.. others are having perfectly normal conversations without arguing.

Perhaps we need to engage the community in brainstorming solutions to these problems so the forum administrators are not put into a position of policing the community and developing new rules, but rather enforcing commonly agreed upon guidelines.

It will not work. Just ask any large forum/community administrator. Experience shows this fact.

[AmyStephen]

More shame for speaking out.  :-[ 

I praised you for your work supporting us. How much adoration is needed? 100% blind loyalty? No disagreements or you get shamed? Looks like my posts in this thread have come to an end, as well.

I'll use this -->  :'( rather than this -->  to show my feelings about that end result. I just don't take that conclusion as cute or funny in any way. Just sad.

[ibnhafsun]

No, brad, the response answer is in your own words, but you are not able to see it.

I don´t need the feature but you are giving it to different working group members... Why do they need it? That´s the big question. If the don´t need it, shut down the feature for all of us; if they need it, tell us why and why we don´t. Simple, uh?

PS: I thought I was bounded by the CoC, as a member of this community, forgive me, it was my mistake.

[MMMedia]

PS: I thought I was bounded by the CoC, as a member of this community, forgive me, it was my mistake.

No, as a general member of the community you are bound by the rules of the forum located here: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,65.0.html, if you so wish to interact with other members of the community via the forums. Those are the only requests we make of community members that wish to interact with other community members.

All Working Group members are held to the Code of Conduct which is why it is located on the dev.joomla.org site.

Both the rules of the forum and the Code of Conduct are simple, easy to follow guidelines, (that actually are more of an example of how you should be as a human being at all times) that help the Community and the Working Groups by providing at least some sort of base structure, as wiithout structure there is chaos.

To get back to the topic at hand.  I have used the Who's Online once.. and it was by accident.  I fail to see any usefulness to it that can't be gotten other ways, such as by looking at the members that are online listed at the bottom of the main forum page.  You can find out much more information by clicking on a user's profile to see where they have posted, and to see what are the hot topics for today, you can simply click on the Show unread posts since last visit at the top of the forum located under your user profile that shows at the top of the forum.  If a topic interests me, I simply subscribe to it so that I get notifications when a new post is added.

As someone who also felt they were being stalked from post to post on the forums, I am glad this has been disabled.  I also at the time reported to the Admins that I felt I was being stalked.  I have had others report to me that they felt they were being stalked.  Everyone has the ability to report if they feel someone is breaching the rules of the forum or if they feel someone is acting inappropriately.  Contact a Moderator or a Forum Admin and every single one of them will be more than happy to investigate it and take the appropriate action.

[AmyStephen]

As someone who also felt they were being stalked from post to post on the forums, I am glad this has been disabled.  I also at the time reported to the Admins that I felt I was being stalked.  I have had others report to me that they felt they were being stalked. 

I hate that, Jenny, and I am sorry that you and others have felt uncomfortable. If this action makes you feel safer, I am glad that it provides comfort. And, again, this is a community problem and I stand right there with you, too, against anyone who would harrass you. You support our community with hours and hours of help and it is appreciated. No one has the right to make you feel uncomfortable. I am sorry that this has happened to you and I thank you for sharing this.

I have also felt "stalked, closely watched, overly cared for" myself. I just choose to head the opposite direction. I am more open. I figured, dammit, what have I got to hide? I am doing my best and I am willing to talk to anyone if there is a problem. So, more and more of me is available for closer and closer scrutiny.  :P

Honestly, thanks Jenny, for stepping forward, and Brad, thanks for helping others feel safer. Again, I hate this and combined with other recent events makes me wonder what is going on with our community. Mr. Baker - you take too much to heart - that is not a reflection on you as you do EXCELLENT WORK. It is a reflection on us and is likely growing pains due to our success.

Now - big, huge, community group hug. See - now, that calls for one of these -->  ;) or these -->  take your pick!

Honestly, no harm intended, only support. I am *quite* certain Rafa feels the same. We are indeed on the same team here, folks, even if some of us are not wearing the fancy Varsity jerseys. Let's ALL try to lighten up a bit. I'll try first.

Amy

[ibnhafsun]

Thanks for your reply, MMMedia.

May be it´s time to change

This Code of Conduct covers your behaviour as a member of the Joomla! community, in any forum

to

This Code of Conduct covers your behaviour as a Working Group Member, in any forum

as I am a proud member of the Joomla! community too 1 and even more if you are not going to stop those speaking about the community in a restrictive way (you know, "this is a community of coders", "this is just about CODE" and things like that). It´s just a sug, words are important

As I said before, if a user, a single user, feels like being "stalked", you have done it right. It doesn't matter if the member is brian, you or the latest registered user. I don´t understand why you feel that way and what it has to do with the who´s online feature but I do believe you (and brian) and if you feel more comfortable that´s right with me.

I don´t want to be here 3 or 4 hours trying to convince you what kind of information the who´s online gave me, as we have different points of view (and different sources to get information). Just tell me, if you feel like being stalked and you want to "protect us", isn´t it better to shut down the feature for all (at least for those who don´t need it)?

It´s simple, just answer me the previous questions:

I don´t need the feature but you are giving it to different working group members... Why do they need it? That´s the big question. If the don´t need it, shut down the feature for all of us; if they need it, tell us why and why we don´t. Simple, uh?

Brad

..unless you know the topic or user to search for, and even so, browsing 30 pages of data that changes by the second is not very effective.

It is not as effective as your statistics but we don´t have access to them, you know. I know the men-women ratio, but the only way I have to know the spanish speaking users ratio is to browse the whos=action. You can use the logs to get information, but if a  translation partner is tracking my posts, the only way I have to know it is, like I did, making a post, wait and see what happens (you have the logs, if you want I can pm you about that specific post, how it was posted and tracked by your translation partner and why). If a translation partner is violating your license policies I have two options: report or speak. I do prefer speak, so I use to send a pm, wait for the user to see his inbox, chat...

1

We could not have done it without the support of the entire community. Good work everyone!

-----------------------------------------

PS: Keeping things simple. The last post here.

It´s easy. We have a problem with a feature, being used (in your opinion) to stalk the forum users. We want to protect the users as the feature is potentially dangerous. Instead of protecting all the users from being stalked by a user group (the registered members), protect all the users from being stalked and give the feature only to the ones that need it.

1) Shut down the feature
2) Make a post explaining it

Differences:

No one has to ask what happened, and if someone does, you can refer him to your post.

20 posts will not be wasted

You have identified a risk, but instead of being restrictive with a group of users, you are applying a general rule "We want to protect you" and the exception is "the users who need the feature".

Now, what you are telling us is "We want to protect you, but only from the simple users. We can stalk you but you can´t stalk us (in your opinion) as we have a CoC. Well, for some of us it is not important as we are breaking not only the CoC but the licensing policies and the copyrights too, but you need to trust us. This way you can´t know if you are being stalked by any of us but if you want to report a Working Group Member you are free to do it anyway".

Sometimes it´s not what you do, but the way you do it.

Defense of justification is offered if needed again.

[AmyStephen]

This whole thing makes me uncomfortable. I had trouble sleeping last night worrying about this. I honestly do not understand what's going on.

In this thread, we are hearing from Brad, Brian and Jenny that there are people who feel they are stalked right here on the forums. Brad said the forums are "a huge target for trolls, spammers and others who have nothing better to do than to waste their time (and ours) harassing our members."

I don’t think they are making anything up – I assume they feel vulnerable. And, when you look back on this year, these people have indeed taken on a great deal of battles in the forums. So, it should not come as a surprise if they feel a little beaten up. We are indebted to them for the work they have done for us. They deserve our respect and support.

I do not always agree with how we *sometimes* handle conflict. I do not like harsh treatment (i.e., shunning, mocking, argumentative approaches rather than discussions, tag teaming) of people even when they are behaving poorly (i.e., repeatedly raising an issue, doing so in an accusatory way, expecting things be done for free for them now, etc.). Frankly, you might be surprised to hear I am in favor of warnings and bannings to enforce friendliness. Leaving the forums for even one day can be good for the person on the siesta.

I do not believe shutting down capabilities in the forum, especially if trust is an issue, and most especially when it does not protect anyone! I believe in working on trust, instead. Sorry, but, IMO that is not a good direction for our community. 

I believe in engaging the community in discussions, even if it is a new skill and we aren’t certain where to begin. There are techniques, such as SWOT analysis, that could be used to jump start this process and help build enthusiasm and involvement and get the forum admins off of the firing line. I am certain we have community members with advanced Quality Initiative skills who would love to help.

I would encourage everyone who spends time here to take their Myer Briggs Indicators assessment and place your indicators proudly beneath your name so that others can start to get to know you better. There are no “good” or “bad” results. Interactions between different types of people can come easily or require more effort, it’s normal. The assessment is here http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp; and indicator descriptions are here: http://www.personalitypage.com/high-level.html.

I have a very strong sense that the forums work well for certain Myers Briggs types and not as well as others. I also believe men and women tend towards certain types and some of our gender inequities might become revealed with this instrument.

I realize Eben Moglen’s gave his speech to the Plone Community < http://dev.joomla.org/component/option, ... ,33/p,239/ > but, secretly, I think he intended that talk specifically for our community. Is it about the software? Or, is it about the community? And, what does that mean? And, how can we answer that question without engaging the community in some fashion?

++++

Now, up until this very thread, I honestly looked at our conflict as people with different personalities and strengths who deep down honestly believed in one another and had faith and trust and confidence that we are all working towards common goals. That is how I have felt about each of you.

I do not collect information to protect myself. I use all of the capabilities within the forums that I can and I have not formulated articulate arguments to justify use. I have liberally taken full advantage of everything offered believing it was encouraged.

If I am a suspect of these concerns and we have reached the point that you have determined you cannot trust me, I need to know. I want my ID removed because I am at risk.  I have worked along side you for a year. I cannot *possibly* be more open than I have been. I have made myself available and vulnerable because I trust and I believe and I have nothing to hide and I want only good things for each of you and for our community.

Without trust, folks, we are in trouble. Nothing works and paranoia spreads. Our energies are wasted defending and protecting and collecting evidence. I want no part of that. You have to decide to place your trust in people, or not. With trust in place, we can work through any problems presented us and continue to empower and grow and strengthen this community, all together, as a whole.

Thank you for listening *again and again*...Amy