Extensions directory is rigged and thoroughly dodgy !!!!!!!

[robbo1]

I recently posted a review of the mosets tree component. While it was not a favourable review, it reflected my heart-felt opinion. I wanted my opinion to be shared with other users. It did not contain any inappropriate information. It only recounted my experience and dissatisfaction with this particular software. My post did not get added to the mosets tree reviews section of the extensions directory.

Without wanting to jump to conclusions, I posted another review three days ago. Once again, it was not a favourable review, but it was a balanced review based on my experience. Unfortunately, this review did not make it onto the review section for mosets tree. I have received no notification by way of email that there was any problem - or reason as to - why my review would not be included in the extensions directory. This leads me to conclude that the extensions directory is rigged! Users of the extensions directory are being lied to. And that annoys me!

I note that mosets tree, unlike other directory software, only has positive reviews. Is this because the moderators of the extension directory are also the developers of mosets tree? Is this a conflict of interest? Are users of joomla receiving full and accurate information from other users wanting to share their experiences with them? Unless you're commenting positively about mosets tree, it appears very difficult to express your opinion.

Be very aware - open source - doesn't mean honesty!

[ot2sen]

Hi robby1 - and welcome to Joomla! Community Forum 

Each submitted review is evaluated by the editorial team before approving.
Should the developer of the extension reviewed be one of the editorial team members, then this member will not take part in the evaluation of that review. Simple as that.

For this particular review it could not be approved due to the content of the review.
A review will be approved when it reviews functionality in the extension, that could be either positive or negative review.
When the review is about functions that is not in the extension, or like, then the review will be rejected.

You are more than welcome to submit a new review for that extension with focus on the current state of the extension and it features.
Then we will be happy to evaluate that too. Thanks.

[onthepitch]

Hello,

I'm new to Joomla! however have been using Open Source CMS systems for about 5 years now. I just joined this board and this is the first post I read, I guess you call this jumping in with both feet.

In your reply to robbo1 regarding his review posting you state

When the review is about functions that is not in the extension, or like, then the review will be rejected.

So by this, if a component is developed, downloaded and reviewed with given feedback relating to the lack of functionality then it will be rejected?

For instance, if I had a 40" LCD Flat Screen that only offered 720p resolution, by your rules, I could not provide feedback that stated "TV is ok would be better with 1080i"?

Am I reading this correctly? Do you censor reviewer comments that deeply?

[brian]

Just a guess but I think otsen is referrin to a review that says my brand shiny new dvd player is no good because it wont play my video tapes

[Vimes]

The review system is for reviews about the components themselves. It is designed to give users an idea of how effectively the component/module/plugin does what's written on the tin.

If the review says that the component doesn't work as stated, then we'll approve it. If the review says it does, then we'll approve that too. Anything outside those parameters is generally rejected, although lots of reviews have 'grey' areas and each has to be judged on merit.

The review that robbo1 was referring to didn't fall into that category therefore it was rejected, but not by the editor who's component it happened to be reviewing.

On the review team we are very very aware that as (some of us are) professional component developers some may consider that we may have a vested interest what goes onto the extensions server. This is true, insofar that we recognise that the extension server is probably one of the biggest 'selling points' for Joomla, which is why we work extremely hard to ensure that the information that is on the server is accurate, honest and above reproach.

[edited to complete my thoughts]

[AmyStephen]

we work extremely hard to ensure that the information that is on the server is accurate, honest and above reproach.

Knowing who is involved as editors, I am quite certain and 100% confident this is true.

Anything we can do to continue to build in transparency of process could eliminate the "sting" of these complaints. For example:

- Publish all feedback but have the editors indicate why the feedback was inappropriate (ex, it makes no sense to evaluate a DVD when you are looking at a VCR, don't include these in any stats but keep the comments available with the extension);

- Publish all feedback but allow the extension providers to take care of this completely now that they have their own feedback system available;

- Or, at minimum, to keep a list available to the community of rejected feedback and display the submitters name, date, reason rejected and the extension.

As our community grows and all of the sudden everyone doesn't know who Vimes is or who Ot2sen is, and why we should obviously "trust them," transparency will be required to maintain community confidence in the process and, more importantly, protect Joomla!.

You guys are doing a fabulous job and it is INCREDIBLE the distance traveled in less than one year's time. You *are* getting there and I am quite certain these ideas are things you talk about all of the time!

As an estimate, how many comments are rejected each month? Do we have figures on this?

Thanks!
Amy

[robbo1]

Since my original comment in relation to the functionality of Mosets Tree was rejected, I have submitted a further two comments. Both of these appear to have been rejected. No reason as to why these were rejected has been offered.

It is important to note that neither my original post, nor my subsequent posts were irrelevant or frivolous in nature. To suggest that my comments were akin to evaluating a DVD when one is looking at a VCR indicates that you either did not read my comments or are merely using ridicule as a means of dismissing my point of view.

It is also worth noting that in my two subsequent posts I was very careful to abide by the revised (and quite frankly non-sensical) parameters set by the moderators. Both of these comments would have highlighted very useful information for any prospective user of Mosets Tree.

The fact that you have decided to ignore my three comments (all of which were relevant, reasoned and fair in the circumstances) provides me with little confidence in the impartiality of the moderators. It is perhaps not insignificant that one of the moderators is also the developer of the component about which my comments relate. You indicate that you are not biased in reaching decisions as to which comments appear on the site. I note that the comments relating to Mosets Tree and overwhelmingly positive. This may mean that it is a fantastic component or it may merely indicate that anyone providing a contrary view will not be heard.

I complied with your stricter criteria and yet you still rejected my comments. I think you owe it to this community to let people be heard. Censorship is rarely a positive step to take in any community-based situation but is in fact often an indication of ulterior motives. Please post my original comments and let others decide if my comments are worthwhile or not. If, as you appear to be indicating, my comments were irrelevant, others will very quickly point this out.

The way things currently stand I have lost all confidence in (and respect for) the moderators of the extensions directory. As I implied in the title to this thread, users of the extension directory are not receiving the complete picture. I stand by the comments made that the extensions directory is rigged and thoroughly dodgy!

[Vimes]

I haven't seen any of the subsequent reviews, so I can't comment. Everything else is opinion, to which you are entitled.

[robbo1]

Unfortunately Vimes, that's the problem here - it doesn't appear as though I am entitled to have an opinion!!!!

And even if I am, you and your fellow moderators are preventing me from expressing it.

[AmyStephen]

Robbo1 -

Let's wait and hear why the subsequent reviews were rejected and let's make certain that you are able to submit a review that meets with the criteria and expresses your viewpoint.

It is the holiday season. These are honest people. I am completely confident within a week's time this will be resolved.

OK? Lot of people on this thread who care, most of all the moderators. Let's wait for the explanation.

Amy

[robbo1]

Yes - agreed. Thank you Amy.

[Vimes]

Surely, if that were the case, we'd've binned this thread ages ago. As it is, we've left it here to give you a chance to voice your thoughts.

Like I said, I haven't seen the subsequent reviews, so I'm not in a position to comment. I believe if the review was aimed squarely at the component then it would have been approved, however if it would have been opinion about the developers or their website or their business models or something else that wasn't actually a discussion about the component (we get a lot of 'reviews' like this) then it would have been rejected.


Perhaps the extensions server would benefit from some extra functionality whereby when a review is rejected then a reason can be added which is then fired off to the reviewer, so at least there's some feedback. At the moment there are far too many reviews to be able to spend the time mannually penning individual emails to each one that's not been accepted. I'll bring the subject up with the other editors in the New Year.

[onthepitch]

Lots of great feedback to my original post, I really appreciate that. Off topic, I just installed my first Joomla! portal while at work, taking phone calls, sending email's and generally harassing my employees (in a nice and non-offensive way ofcourse). That's fairly impressive to say the most, looking forward to switching my very active, very old CPG-Nuke site to Joomla!

Now... on this topic, I have to agree with Amy, relevance if moderated again becomes opinion. I suggest (like ebay, and most other boards) that you post the feedback and allow the module developer to comment. In this situation, you learn 2 things. Functionality of the products does and doesn't haves and Character of the developer. Personally, I have purchased and followed products that weren't 100% up to spec because the character of the development team gave me confidence in the longevity of the product.

my -2c- , I guess I'll be seeing you all around allot more now! 

[AmyStephen]

Vimes -

Thanks to all of you on the editorial team for what you do for our community for free - I mean that. Your patience and grace is much appreciated.

Amy

[robbo1]

We'd appreciate you even more if you didn't withhold comments made by a user in relation to a component developed and sold for profit by one of your fellow editors.

This is just an idea - how about you clearly state on the extensions directory that only positive comments can be made in relation to Mosets Tree. Let users know that all other comments will be deleted and discarded. And then, for anyone who has the audacity to raise the issue with you as to why their comments have not been posted, rather than focus on their comments, how about you let people know that you (editors) will ridicule them and their comments publicly so that they can be dismissed as irrelevant.

Yes - great job guys, you're really serving the community (or at least your immediate editorial community) brilliantly. Thanks for all your efforts - NOT!

Once again I ask - please post my original comments. Let users be the judge of whether they are relevant or not! Besides, every developer has a right of reply. Why not let my comments stand and provide your editorial-developer-mate with a chance to respond to them? Or is this not what the extensions directory is about .....  because we can only allow comments about what's on the tin and not what might be in the tin...and we can't allow comments about whether you've found the component useful...because that's not on the tin....and we can't allow comments about the rsponse time of developers because that's not on the tin.....

You lot make me sick - If I had a tin opener in your company I'd open up a tin of whip ass on the lot of you!

[manuman]

Firstly... I'm not an editor of the Extensions site however I do have access to it and so I went to see what you had to say in your reviews. I could only see one, however having seen it I can say that I stand by the editors descision not to publish it.

I would suggest that you read the rules of the extensions site http://extensions.joomla.org/content/view/12/36/ and if you decide to re-submit a review you do so following these rules.  They provide all the room you should need for review that is objective(good or bad) and will provide the Joomla! community with an insight into your usage of a given extension(again good or bad).

Its not the place to air gripes nor wage war on developers (commercial or OS) through comments that go beyond the extenion being reviewed.

Cheers
Shayne

[robbo1]

Manuman

I have reviewed the rules of the extensions site using the link you provided. There is absolutely NOTHING contained within these rules to suggest that my post was in any way inappropriate. While I know, even though you're not one of the editors of this particular part of the forum, you wouldn't want to compromise yourself - responding to requests from your editorial mates on this part of the forum does tend to undermine the integrity of your posts. Think about it!!!

My request to the editorial staff is very SIMPLE! And just in case i was misunderstood previously - I'll say it agian:

PLEASE PUBLISH MY ORIGINAL POST!!!!!!!

Let others (and not the biased editors and their developer mates) decide if my post was reasonable or not. Don't limit the review of my post to the small cohort of joomla bed buddies that have "access" to it. Make it public and let the broader user base decide whether it was reasonable or not!!!

Follow your OWN rules and publish my comment! How about that? What a refreshing change it would be if you followed your own DAMNED RULES...... Don't lie to everyone and hide behind some covert set of rules that don't indicate that someone with a contrary view should be marginalised!!!!! Be honest for a change! Stop skirting the issue:

Once again - PLEASE PUBLISH MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS

They were not inappropriate, did not break any rules, and were a good source of information for anyone considering using this comnponent....

STOP MISLEADING USERS OF THE EXTENSIONS FORUM !!!!!!!!!!!!

[ot2sen]

Hi robbo1,

Just checked, and can see that you made a new review for that extension yesterday.
Having read that, I have to invite you to try once again. This time with particular focus on these parts of the review rules:

A review is a serious examination of a person's experience with an extension which is presented on the Joomla! Extensions Directory. Praise, difficulties, or comparisons with other extensions are all valid parts of a review, including the reasons why.

and especially this:

Please stay courteous and don’t use any offensive language.

Can´t promise that a new review will be approved, but avoiding use of certain words will surely help alot.
It is possible to write constructive criticism in a review without the use of offensive language 

[robbo1]

Have a look at my orignial post monkey - you will find that it contained no offensive material. Since then, I've become tired of the dishonesty around here and the ever-changing rules that seem to apply. This has made my tone less amicable and has resulted in me resorting to the occassional - and last resort -- use of inappropriate language.

Like I said before, this has got me so hot that you're lucky we're no in the same room together! Otherwise, I'd give you what for !!!!!

It's unfortunate, given the lack of honesty and integrity that prevails, that the extensions site is so influential. The extensions site editorial staff clearly have hidden agendas.....

It wasn't that long ago that I noticed a disparaging review, which bordered on a personal attack against Phil Talyor and his Directory Component, on the extensions directory. I know for a fact that these comments were enough to encourage many users to consider cometitor sofatware.......Apparently, displaying disparaging comments such as these (which provided far less factual support than my comments) was fine (in the eyes of the editors) just so long as the remarks were made about one of their competition products ( and not one of their own).

What a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is interesting - and quite sad - to note that the comments permitted to go through the keepers net regarding Phil Taylor's components were far more liberal than those capable of being made available to the public in relation to Mosets Tree.

I now believe that using Mosets Tree was a mistake! And I honestly believe that mistake was made, at least in part, as a result of the misinformation contained (and as has been indicated above, not contained) within this extensions directory.  

I have since noted (and discussed independently with third parties) how good Phil Taylor and his components are.

But, then again, I guess he is not one of the extension directory editors. And, it just so happens that he develops a component in competition to Mosets Directory.

Unfortunately, most people here seem to harbour some grudge towards Phil Taylor. Is this because he is successful and you are not?

I don't know what it is, but you were more than prepared to allow negative reviews against his component. Why are you not prepared to permit a negative review of the Mosets Tree component. (I  think I've already answered my question - Mosets Tree developers are ALSO THE EDITORS OF THE EXTENSIONS DIRECTORY!!!!!! How convenient!!!!!)

And how entirely INAPPROPRIATE !!!!!!

[brian]

Threatening physical violence is NOT the way to go

[robbo1]

No - you're right Brian, it's not! But perhaps being honest is.......

How about POSTING MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS!!!!

That appears to be the only decent thing to do! Apparently, some silly technicalities have prevented my subsequent posts from being displayed - why not be honest with everyone and just:

POST MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS!!!!!

It's all I ask! If I'm an idiot or my comments are inappropriate, people will soon remark to that effect. I'm prepared to face that risk - ARE YOU???????????

[brian]

Dont you think an apology and retraction is due from you for the threats you have made.

[robbo1]

Don't you think that you owe me an apology for making disparaging remarks about the comments I made in relation to this component? VCR / DVD comparison ring any bells....

Let's get the facts straight here:

I'm a user of the Mosets Tree component. I provided a review of this component. While it wasn't an overwhelmingly positive review, it was an honest review. My intention, in providing this review, was to enable other potential users to better understand the component. My review was disallowed. The reasons for it being disallowed have never really been made clear (apart from some idiot talking about what is in the tin and what is not in the tin - quite frankly a pathetic mindless rant that has nothing to do with any reality enjoyed by people on this planet). The Mosets Developers are also editors of this part of the extensions forum. Mosets directory has nothing but overwhelmingly positive reviews appearing beside its component in the extensions directory. Other competitor components to Mosets Tree (for example, Phil Taylor's component) have many negative and unsupported / irrational comments made about them....

And you have the cheek to ask me for an apology........ get real Brian......

As I've asked you before:

PLEASE PUBLISH MY ORIGINAL COMMENTS REGARDING MOSETS TREE

[brian]

Read what I said and what it was in response to.

As far as I can see the guys working hard moderating the extensions site have provided you with the opportunity to post "in an appropriate" manner but you have chosen not to.
[me=brian]goes back to crawl into bed[/me]

[robbo1]

Brian

Something for you to get your huge mind around as you crawl into your bed - I have posted three times. As indicated previously, each of these has been apprropriate (given the circumstances), has complied with the existing published rules at the time of posting and has provided a robust analysis of the Mosets Tree component for other users to accept or disregard.

I don't know what it is that you find difficult to understand about this...... Have a good rest and maybe you'll think more clearly about this in the morning!

[brian]

otsen has been quite clear what you have to do to have a chance to get  review published. Threatening physical violence isnt one of them

[robbo1]

I've been quite clear about what I've already submitted Brian. Each post was appropriate if not flattering to Mosets Tree. Unfortunately, you let disparaging comments about Phil Taylor's products be published (which unfortunately influenced my - and many other users decisions) and yet you do not want to publish comments about Mosets Tree.

Get out from behind your rock and publish my commentsd dude!

[brian]

As I'm just a forum member there is nothing i can do to publish your comments good or bad

[Vimes]

Ok, this has gone on long enough now robbo1.

You've had your say, and in doing so been quite abusive to several people here who have been both courteous and patient with you, people who are not editors (not that this gives you the right to be rude) and generally flailing in all directions.

Enough.

If you cannot maintain a civil tone with the other people on this forum then I invite you to take your comments, flames and general rants elsewhere, not joomla.org.


Please remember this forum rule

Keep all commentary civil, and be courteous at all times. Constructive criticism is welcome, but insults directed towards other users or the site admins will not be tolerated. Coarse/insulting language will not be tolerated.

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

Maybe if this thread had been started with a different angle and less heat then it could have been discussed rather than tic-tac flames :-)  but there are valid points on both sides (If you read past the flaming)

For this particular review it could not be approved due to the content of the review.
A review will be approved when it reviews functionality in the extension, that could be either positive or negative review.
When the review is about functions that is not in the extension, or like, then the review will be rejected.

Simply not true in my experience! 

we work extremely hard to ensure that the information that is on the server is accurate, honest and above reproach.

Again, in my personal experience I do not agree.

I don't want to start a flame war but "reviews" on my commercial components (And on other free components by other developers) have been published when they are:
- Totally factually incorrect (I can prove this!)
- Made by users of pirated copies of the software (I can prove this!)
- Made by visitors that have never purchased the software (I can prove this!)
- Moaning and winging user
- Personal and professional accusations that in the real world would be punishable in a court of law. (I can prove this!)
- Complaints about Support (Not about the components)
- Complaints about missing features when it was never advertised as a feature (See quote above!)
- Promotion of competing commercial products (Including mosets tree!) (I can prove this!)
- Complaints about price (Which is nothing to do with features!) (I can prove this!)
- Complaints about Bugs that are not even in the software but made up by the user - or misunderstood features. (I can prove this!)
- Complaints that it doesn't work with 404Sef when we make VERY VERY clear what is and is not supported. (I can prove this!)

The story is the same on not just my commercial components but on other components in the Extensions Directory!

Most of the so-called reviews on our components are not reviews, in the true sense of the word.  Thats not the fault of te moderation team - but of the submitters, although *some* checking of the facts should be made by moderator/editors (You would not publish a front page of a newspaper ,saying Bush is Dead, as an editor without checking the facts of the story would you? Thats the job of an editor?!)

I have even given up and asking the moderators to modify or reject factually incorrect reviews as all it does is generate more bad-will towards me and only two reviews have ever been changed.  I now (sometimes) use the "owners reply" to state the case why I feel a review is inaccurate and then just hope the visitor makes up their own mind.

All developers can hope for is that customers look past the reviews ad actually TRY the products for themselves. Those users that actually try the components are amazed and leave good reviews!.

I always find it funny that the same code can generate a 5 Star reaction from one user and a 0 Star reaction from another user when the code is exactly the same - One of these users has a problem!!!!!

The moderators have a hard job, one that they take seriously to the point of arguments, but in the world and community we find ourselves in I dont think anything is going to change quickly.

I personally would like the original review submitted by robbo1 to be posted here in this thread to provide a little balance, we can then all judge for ourselves if the review is a review or not. 

Again, I support the Joomla Team, at the same time as knowing that the reviews system is flawed because of its very nature - not only because of the moderation

Let me make this clear before someone mis-reads my post - I AM NOT BLAMING THE JOOMLA TEAM but supporting them in the hard job they have to do - I dont need or want any more flames about this sensitive subject (Commercial Components!)