Open Source Products Forum

eyezberg · Post by **eyezberg** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:21 am

There is a rule specific to the "Open Source Products" Forum, placed in a sticky here: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,131272.0.html

This rule hints at the obligation of anyone wanting to give something to this community of having to register on the extension site, wait for their signup to be approved, pload their contribution there, and only then link to it exclusively on this extension site -except for templates.

Sorry, but this is a stupid (or "daft" as Brian said) rule.
It keeps people from sharing in a simple way a free product with all of us.

It was put forward by moderators that this is necessary because of spam -is there no spam reg. templates, and does it really take LESS time to point every "offender" to the sticky rule, than it takes to remove SOME spam?
Is it better to encourage sharing of extensions and manually filter spam, or force a complicated procedure open everybody..

If this doesn't get re-evaluated, I'll provide another place for anyone to freely list their open-source extensions -I'll take care of the spam. I am not applying for a mod position in said forum.

brad · Post by **brad** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:28 am

Joe,
How hard is it to utilize the extensions site? It's simple, and FWIW, the extensions site will give an extension far more 'publicity' than a post on this forum. Where do you go for Joomla extensions? A forum post, no, the Extensions site. Honestly, we provide people with so many ways to get their product out there.

...pload their contribution there...

Please take a look at the extensions site, it does not host files, it provides the exact resource you are saying we don't provide.

You're welcome to open a site of your own to list extensions of course, but why would anyone not want to use the Extensions site?

That being said, Tonie and I already we re-evaluating the Open Source Products forum. Perhaps, seeing as you note, it is redundant (expect for templates) we have no need for it anyway.

This rule hints at the obligation of anyone wanting to give *something* to this community...

You might want to re-phrase that. People 'give' to the community all the time, and not necessarily with an open source product.

We're on the same side as you, we want to promote and help Joomla, but labeling things as stupid and daft.... come on.. we're not kids playing in the sandpit.

ibnhafsun · Post by **ibnhafsun** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:44 pm

My two cents:

Sometimes, a how-to, a submission template or a FAQ, is better than a rule. Some posts were moved from other forums. Some are new extensions, some just derivatives of an existing extension, some would be considered just snippets. The information, IMHO, is dispersed (dev site, forum, forge, extensions site) and it´s easy to make a mistake or miss some contributions and collaborative efforts (ie. are you providing a "tweaked extension"? have you contacted the original author? have you submitted your changes to the forge? etc etc etc).

Anyway, you, the ones taking care of this, know more than us and I can understand the rule.

eyezberg · Post by **eyezberg** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:00 pm

Let me explain shortly why I posted this:
a new user (under 10 posts) registers on the forum to post about an enhancement to an extension he paid for to have developed.
He links to his site for anyone to download this extended extension, sharing freely what he invested money in.
What happens?
He is told: you can't do this, if you want to share, you need to also register on the extensions site, set up an entry for this there, wait for approval, and *then* you can post here and link to it on this extension site... seems a bit long-winded to me, and if I was this new user, I would wonder: am I really welcome here to share this, why are they making this so hard for me..? No? Yes?
Anyone would maybe not want to use the extension site because it's much easier to forum-post when you're already registered, and link to your own site where you provide the download, than re-register, set up the entry, wait for an unknown time for approval, then forum-post and link to it. Easy of use, that's all.

As I wrote in a post about this, it's like saying to a donor: sorry, we don't take cash, open an account and make a transfer.. In the words you ask me to rephrase, the emphasis is not on *something*, but on *give*. Freely.

Of course I agree it is much better to have it all in one place, but I still think it's a rule more likely to make someone go away with whatever they were going to share, instead of making them feel welcome and thanked. Thus, stupid. I stand by what I wrote, I thought before posting this.

Promoting a free product should be as easy as it gets, and anyone should be able to do it however they see fit. Up to the mods or whomever to keep things organised if they feel it is necessary, but not by telling this person, without even a "thank you", that he's not supposed to link to his site..

Threads that got me upset:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,151002.0.html
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,151064.0.html

Threads linking to "other" sites, without any remark from the mods, in the same forum:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,137319.0.html
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,147035.0.html
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,29974.0.html
or just a hint to the extensions site, but nothing about a rule:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,46.0.html

If that doesn't make sense, my English is getting worse than I thought.

brian · Post by **brian** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:12 pm

eyezberg wrote:If that doesn't make sense, my English is getting worse than I thought.

Makes perfect sense to me and the last three links you provide are very enlightening.

If there have to be rules then they have to be applied evenly to all.

Post by **MMMedia** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:48 pm

brian wrote:
eyezberg wrote:If that doesn't make sense, my English is getting worse than I thought.

Makes perfect sense to me and the last three links you provide are very enlightening.

If there have to be rules then they have to be applied evenly to all.

Just so you know.. the Mods don't intentionally not apply the rules evenly. This is a huge forum, with a huge membership. We are all volunteers, trying to do the best we can. I am just mentioning this because it gets a little disheartening to see post like this that insinuate Moderator bias or intentional wrong doing. If that was not your intent then why mention it at all? Wouldn't you think that it would make sense that a genuine attempt is being made to do the best we can do and apply the rules evenly to all?

Edit: There is a report to mod link with every forum post. Use it to report something if you think it needs mod attention.

brian · Post by **brian** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:02 pm

Sorry Jenny I wasnt meaning to imply any bias or intentional action. In fact I was just trying to show exactly what you say that it is very hard to apply the rule to all. (Although it does sem to work well in the site showcaseforum).

However to go back to the original post is this rule a sensible rule and should it be maintained?

Post by **MMMedia** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:51 pm

Well lets do go back to Joe's original post and then his second post explaining. One thing that seems to be rather contrary is this:

it's like saying to a donor: sorry, we don't take cash, open an account and make a transfer..

Well the reality is that a number of organizations don't take cash, they require that you have a bank account or paypal etc. So to say that those organizations we don't want your money is rather contrary. It isn't that they don't want your money, but for whatever the reason may be, this is the way they have to do it to keep their structure in place. It is like restaurants saying you have to be wearing a shirt and shoes to get service. It isn't that they don't want you as a customer, but they have rules to follow because of health regulations, it is their structure they have to follow to stay in business.

Joe makes it sound like you have to jump through a ring of fire and sell your first born to follow the rules here and the reality is it isn't a hard process to go through, it doesn't take much time, and I think it is good because it tends to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak because if someone is committed to their extension, and wanting to really share it, it isn't a hardship to follow the rules. It separates the ones that are invested from the ones that just want to link farm or post links their sites. Make special note that as Brad stated there are no files uploaded to the Extension site and where Joe got that information is something only he can answer.

I am glad this forum is being looked at for a revamp, but my personal opinion is that it should be done away with totally and simply have the extension site.

I also take issue with this:

If this doesn't get re-evaluated, I'll provide another place for anyone to freely list their open-source extensions -I'll take care of the spam. I am not applying for a mod position in said forum.

Why bother pointing it out at all if you aren't willing to be part of the solution? Go do your own thing then.

brian · Post by **brian** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:05 pm

Actualy I think ibnhafsun had the right idea by suggesting that a "template" is suggested that "all" new posts in this particular forum follow. Just like the "template" in the site showcase section. Its worked pretty well there but then that may be because there are more moderators there and they have religiously enforced the "rule".

BTW This whole debate started because posters were told they werent following the forum rules and people couldnt find the rule in the rules

I'm not 100% convinced that ALL extensions should be posted at the extensions site. If its just a 0.001 release is the extnsions site the best place for it. Personaly I'd far rather see the extensions site containing "mature" extensions than all and sundry.

eyezberg · Post by **eyezberg** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:48 pm

I'm not willing to be part of a solution as there shouldn't even be a problem of this kind. This also answers the "report link" hint, which shouldn't have to be used in this case, as there's no offense at all when a users shares an extension. People can easily report spam links, and I'm sure they will, so there's just no need for this rule, hidden in a sticky.
Upload to extension site is a misphrasing of mine, it's just the whole process & waiting for approval etc that may turn people away -and almost did. I'm not going to quote the PM I got from that user, but you can believe me when i say that how this is handled now is not very inviting for new users...
Regulars here may know how and why to use the extensions site, but there shouldn't be *any* obstacle, no matter how small it may be in *your* eyes Jenny, to share free add-ons.
If I was that user and had been "welcomed" as he's been, I would in fact think that maybe they would take my money, but I can't be bothered to set up a paypal or other account and will just give it to someone else, or keep it.

Of course I'm not going to open another site for people to post links, no use for that, but I'm still as astonished (annoyed, rather) as before about the way this is handled. Dear visitor, if you want to leave this gift of yours, walk back out, ring at the back door, wait for someone to open, tell them what you got, then come back here.. it'll just take a bit longer, but that's the way we need this to be done.

Post by **Tonie** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:27 pm

This forum is a really old one, and has been here on the Mambo forum as well. Its function has changed, since we now do have a resource like JED. Without getting into the above, I suggest we do the following. We'll take a look at the function of the forum first 'What is the forum meant for, and what do we want to accomplish with it'. After this has been done, we can set the guidelines for that particular forum, and move forward.

On a personal note, opening a thread and proving a point with 'stupid', an 'daft' is not the ideal way to start a discussion in a normal way at any time.

ibnhafsun · Post by **ibnhafsun** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:47 pm

Anyway, Tonie, IMO, the extensions site is missing some important information and, if you plan to do so, it would be better to have 3 main links, for new projects (how to submit a project and how to upload it to the forge, etc etc), for modifications (how to contact the original developer and how to submit new features or enhancements on forge projects) and snippets (the new forge feature).

I have seen some persons asking about that, newcomers and oldtimers.

Glad to see you asking for education, courteous behaviour and friendly words. I´ll do the same. Again.

eyezberg · Post by **eyezberg** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:02 pm

Tonie,
good suggestion, but this thread was opened, and in this tone, due to disappointment after a remark in the quoted thread(s) and being told there to stay on topic.
Is "stupid" when applied to a rule really rude in english? If so, sorry. Btw, I have no idea what "daft" actually means..

Enough said, as long as this is now "out in the open" and maybe re-evaluated, that's already a good step in a better direction.

brian · Post by **brian** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:05 pm

daft adj, colloq 1 silly or foolish

Post by **Tonie** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:01 pm

Current ways to publish information to the whole wide world.

Joomla! Related news - http://news.joomla.org

How: http://www.joomla.org/component/option, ... Itemid,75/
Published by: Editoral team. Mostly edited for style/spelling. Any extension writer (commercial and open source) can publish news here.
Limitations: For extensions of any kind, none really
Visibility: medium

Joomla! Extensions Directory - http://extensions.joomla.org

How: http://extensions.joomla.org/content/view/15/63/
Published by: Joomla! Extensions Directory
Limitations: Not meant for templates or core hacks. Hopefully one day we will get a template directory.
Visibility: High. The Joomla! Extensions Directory is the busiest part of the Joomla! Websites.

Open source products forum: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,46.0.html

How: Open a forum account and post.
Published by: nobody, moderated according to forum rules, and sticky in particular forum.
Limitations: mostly for open source templates
Visibility: Medium.

Joomlacode news - http://joomlacode.org

How: publish news from project.
Published by: Joomlacode team has a few simple rules for publishing.
Limitations: Only available for projects that are hosted on http://joomlacode.org.
Visibility: low. Joomlacode.org just started out, this will grow in time.

Conclusion

Looking at this, we have multiple places where people can show news about their open source products to the world.

Options

At the moment, I see the following options:

Close the forum and be done with it

.

Leave it as it is.
Open it up partially, setting some less restrictive rules about which open source products are allowed on the forum.
Open it up totally for all open source products, without being restrictive.

Choice

Now to make a choice....

brian · Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:27 pm

Thanks for the analysis

my 2c would be to
" Open it up totally for all open source products, without being restrictive."

With the proviso that they are for Joomla

ibnhafsun · Post by **ibnhafsun** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:29 pm

Thanks, Tonie. But...

What do you want to have or provide?

Is that the right way to do it?

Don´t take me wrong: we had nothing 20 months ago and now we have, as you pointed, a lot of options. Joomla! is growing fast and some solutions would become problems soon.

IMO, it would be great if we are able to keep things as simple as possible, providing end user information on a single place and enhancing and simplifying the contributions processes. If you try to do a flowchart you will able to understand what I mean...

Post by **Tonie** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:38 pm

This is just a list 'what is' at the moment. A base of information to think things through (for me personally). Since this is regarding a thread on the forum, I posted it here as well. We don't take decisions like this on the fly, there has to be reason.

One place to rule them all

. Definitely something we will keep in mind for the future. The Joomla! sites will most likely migrate to 1.5 this year, this will also be evaluating time for all Joomla! sites (I do have a pretty big list of things that need changing).

Post by **MMMedia** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:40 pm

I suggest that this forum as it is, is done away with.

Instead open a new forum strictly for Open Source Templates. As people can put their code on the forge for extensions and tools, and have it be seen on the Extension Directory, there really is no pressing need for a forum for Open Source Products.

For the Open Source Templates people can post a screen shot and attach the template zip files. No need to link anywhere.

brian · Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:04 pm

Sadly they cant post a template if the fle is larger than 100kb its a limit of the forum.

Post by **Tonie** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:23 pm

Indeed, attachments have one site-wide setting. Then again, I don't think the forum is the ideal distribution method for files. The forum is big, and getting bigger each minute. When we massively add attachments, it will grow even faster.

brian · Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:40 pm

It was kind of an offtopic post anyway as we were/are talking about products and not templates

ibnhafsun · Post by **ibnhafsun** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:43 pm

If you compare this:
http://dev.joomla.org/components/com_jd ... wchart.png

With how the Open Source Products posts are being handled you will find a lot of input points and a lot of materials to make a funny post about a user trying to contribute.

Post by **MMMedia** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:56 pm

How is it off topic when templates are considered 3rd party extensions for Joomla? Is this where we put Open Source Templates right now?

brian · Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:25 pm

No templates go in the templates forum dont they? http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,42.0.html

We are talking about the "open Source products for joomla" forum http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,46.0.html

Post by **MMMedia** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:20 pm

No they don't.. the Templates forum is for asking for help with your Template. People offering completed Templates for the community go here at this time. (Well not here literally as this is the S&I forum, but they go in the Open Source Products Forum.)

brian · Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:35 pm

I apologise and stand correted on that.

eyezberg · Post by **eyezberg** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:59 pm

Do you really believe it's logical and clear for the forum users to have a forum labeled "Templates" and declare it's limited only to support questions, and have another one labeled "Open Source Products for J!" (subtitled "Do you have an Open Source Product available for Joomla!? Let everyone know here" - no mention of templates anywhere!) which should be used to (only?) post open source templates?

What's so special about a template (except they are not included in the extensions site) to declare this "Products" forum is only for them? Rename it to "Open Source Templates" then, solves all this mess by changing one single word, and makes it clear what can go there.

(As a new user) I'd still expect to be able / allowed to post (a link) to a completed CMP (com_ mod_ plug) in their dedicated forums, as the subtitles don't make it clear these are meant as "support only".

Take this as criticism if you want, it is meant as suggestions for improvements..

brad · Post by **brad** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:04 pm

eyezberg wrote: Rename it to "Open Source Templates" then, solves all this mess by changing one single word, and makes it clear what can go there.

Exactly what we are considering.

(As a new user) I'd still expect to be able / allowed to post (a link) to a completed CMP (com_ mod_ plug) in their dedicated forums, as the subtitles don't make it clear these are meant as "support only".

The forum rules strictly prohibit 'self-promotion' in any form, even if it is to one of your own open source products. That is why a specific forum was setup initially so that these events of allowed 'self-promotion' could be managed easily.

brian · Post by **brian** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:09 pm

Isnt posting a template stll self promotion under your rules?

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