Simple and Systematic Introduction for Beginners.

[jalil]

There isn't any. The simplest and friendliest is *jlleblanc's* hello world.
There isn't even a prerequisite list that a newbie can check up on... a *lot* is assumed.
Any comments ?

[Chris Davenport]

Help us write it? 

Chris.

[CirTap]

There isn't even a prerequisite list that a newbie can check up on... a *lot* is assumed.

well, what kind of prerequisites do you have in mind?

Technical: webserver, database server, php 4/5
PC environment: local, test, live
Dev tools: editor / IDE, debugger
Web languages: PHP, (X)HTML, CSS, JS, XML -- we have 'em all involved
Human languages: english (to read what's there)
Programming: object oriented, procedural, and structural programming (concepts)
Joomla: Back-end, Front-end
Joomla: directory and file structure
Joomla: code structure ~ Framework
Joomla: content/database structure
Joomla: localization
Joomla: templates (~ html + php + naming)

Where would you start?
What do you believe a Joombie coder must know before typing ?
What do you believe a Joombie user and administrator must know before typing ?

Ever read a book on Joomla, Webdesign, PHP coding? How many pages or chapters did you skip, because you already knew about it?

I believe there's no such simple and systematic introduction (yet), because each of the dozen (and maybe more) subjects provides a large area of knowledge and many lack the skills and knowledge in one or more of them.
You can't satify all w/o annoying others.
You can have excellent coders that have no clue how to write a valid HTML table tag. Excellent graphic designer w/o a clue about CSS. Awesome server admins who just happen to know that PHP is installed and J! is somehow involved with this.

Have fun,
CirTap

edit: fixed som tiepos

[AmyStephen]

Jalil -

As it turns out, there is a lot of material available. We need to think through the sequence of how it is best presented and identify pieces we want to add to the curriculum. That is part of the purpose of the Joomla! Beginning Developer Course. I pulled that outline together after our initial brainstorming, as a team, in this forum, gathering everyone's comments.

Would you please look through that and consider the points CirTap is making about trying to reach everyone (which is essentially why links to php, mySQL and OOPs external resources are offered). It is also critical, as he is saying, to give helpful "stepping in" points for those who have already mastered certain skills, but simply need to see the basics of the Joomla! architecture and move on from there.

I think we should take the dates off and completely make it a "self-study with support" approach. (Meaning, get in there and learn. Start where you need to start; take the time you need to take; and ask questions in the forums and on Skype if you need help.) What's your take on that approach?

CirTap - the prerequisites I listed are:

Prerequisites – solid understanding of how to install and configure Joomla! core and third party extensions; basic understanding of website administration, including how to install and configure PHP, Apache, and MySQL and how to backup and restore a Joomla! database and website; working knowledge of XHTML and CSS; either some programming background or a willingness to work harder to learn the basics. Other than that, the Joomla! Beginner Developer Course assumes you come ready to learn with nothing more than basic computing and Joomla! knowledge.

I think it is reasonable to assume basic webmaster and website development skills are in place. If people don't know those things, there is opportunity to do so in the End User/Website Administrator site of the Joomla! curriculum (i.e., in the "how to build a Joomla! website" curriculum.)

Frankly, I do not view template development as a Developer function, at all, and have always been puzzled why it's on the developer site. (I know there is a bit of cryptic PHP, but nothing more cryptic than an Excel formula.) The exception to that is the template overrides which ARE, IMO, developer related.

Anything you or Chris wanted to offer as feedback on that curriculum and approach would ALSO be much appreciated!

Thanks!
Amy

[jalil]

There isn't even a prerequisite list that a newbie can check up on... a *lot* is assumed.

well, what kind of prerequisites do you have in mind?

Technical: webserver, database server, php 4/5
PC environment: local, test, live
Dev tools: editor / IDE, debugger
Web languages: PHP, (X)HTML, CSS, JS, XML -- we have 'em all involved
Human languages: english (to read what's there)
Programming: object oriented, procedural, and structural programming (concepts)
Joomla: Back-end, Front-end
Joomla: directory and file structure
Joomla: code structure ~ Framework
Joomla: content/database structure
Joomla: localization
Joomla: templates (~ html + php + naming)

Where would you start?
What do you believe a Joombie coder must know before typing ?
What do you believe a Joombie user and administrator must know before typing ?

Ever read a book on Joomla, Webdesign, PHP coding? How many pages or chapters did you skip, because you already knew about it?

I believe there's no such simple and systematic introduction (yet), because each of the dozen (and maybe more) subjects provides a large area of knowledge and many lack the skills and knowledge in one or more of them.
You can't satify all w/o annoying others.
You can have excellent coders that have no clue how to write a valid HTML table tag. Excellent graphic designer w/o a clue about CSS. Awesome server admins who just happen to know that PHP is installed and J! is somehow involved with this.

Have fun,
CirTap

edit: fixed som tiepos

there you go...see ? now that would make any newbie FAINT on the spot !.

put yourself in the shoes of a newbie, and most of your questions become clearer.
so anyway, its not a big deal, so i understand your confusion...the idea i have is to make it easy for someone to get acquainted with joomla coding without being stripslashed by php in the beginning stages, then runaway back to safe html coding.

but ok, i have to do some in order to make it clearer....

[jalil]

Help us write it? 

Chris.

i actually think i would, yes, given some spare time in the near future.

[jalil]

Jalil -

As it turns out, there is a lot of material available. We need to think through the sequence of how it is best presented and identify pieces we want to add to the curriculum. That is part of the purpose of the Joomla! Beginning Developer Course. I pulled that outline together after our initial brainstorming, as a team, in this forum, gathering everyone's comments.

Would you please look through that and consider the points CirTap is making about trying to reach everyone (which is essentially why links to php, mySQL and OOPs external resources are offered). It is also critical, as he is saying, to give helpful "stepping in" points for those who have already mastered certain skills, but simply need to see the basics of the Joomla! architecture and move on from there.

I think we should take the dates off and completely make it a "self-study with support" approach. (Meaning, get in there and learn. Start where you need to start; take the time you need to take; and ask questions in the forums and on Skype if you need help.) What's your take on that approach?

CirTap - the prerequisites I listed are:

Prerequisites – solid understanding of how to install and configure Joomla! core and third party extensions; basic understanding of website administration, including how to install and configure PHP, Apache, and MySQL and how to backup and restore a Joomla! database and website; working knowledge of XHTML and CSS; either some programming background or a willingness to work harder to learn the basics. Other than that, the Joomla! Beginner Developer Course assumes you come ready to learn with nothing more than basic computing and Joomla! knowledge.

I think it is reasonable to assume basic webmaster and website development skills are in place. If people don't know those things, there is opportunity to do so in the End User/Website Administrator site of the Joomla! curriculum (i.e., in the "how to build a Joomla! website" curriculum.)

Frankly, I do not view template development as a Developer function, at all, and have always been puzzled why it's on the developer site. (I know there is a bit of cryptic PHP, but nothing more cryptic than an Excel formula.) The exception to that is the template overrides which ARE, IMO, developer related.

Anything you or Chris wanted to offer as feedback on that curriculum and approach would ALSO be much appreciated!

Thanks!
Amy

Amy, i think you are also a joomla! monk....lol
what you have said above, though very true in every aspect, is what a newbie don't really want to hear, and does not help much either. the most likely reaction of the newbie is to go buy a dummies guide to joomla...or web mastering, or to look for a tutor, or to look for help elsewhere.

i think newbies should be 'courted' and 'coveted' to come in and join joomla coding. i know some excellent programmers who isn't at all interested in joomla! and such...it's just an alien word to them....another yahooo, another google, another java. these people do not realise the architecture behind joomla as you described, and hence do not know what they miss, so its these people that i want to wake up. trust me, they are not impressed with programming jargon, which joomla is so rich of.

so i can't say much without proving my point. i will have to go away and write something introducing joomla to an expert, who will no doubt be amazed at what the possiblities are of this 'script' as they call it. granted, being a script run under some OS, it has some limitations, but the usefullness of it well overshadow this interpreter/scipt being. there is possiblity for joomla to be industrial strength. or why do you think i'm here at all ?

so i'll go away quietly again to do some more deep thinking...and smoke peace pipe. 

ta !

p/s as for template development...lol...its art amy, ask some expert coder to make a good template and the will not be able to come up with something even near as nice as a truly creative template designer, given twice the time. tut, you're too techie to recognise that. 

pp/s...disclaimer :: am not a template designer.

[AmyStephen]

I cannot wait to see what you produce! It will be exciting to see.

Thanks, Jalil, for sharing your passion with the community!

Amy

[jalil]

I cannot wait to see what you produce! It will be exciting to see.

Thanks, Jalil, for sharing your passion with the community!

Amy

well, with your enthusiam, i woud send my writings to you first so you could add some and comment some. remember i'm going to write for an expet audience and for an absolute beginner audience. two writings. will be back someday...ciao.

[Alfred]

I am also eager to start learning developing some extensions for Joomla.

My first component is coming along just fine. I found a lot of help in the joomla documentation:
http://dev.joomla.org/component/option,com_jd-wiki/Itemid,/id,tutorials:components/

Also the book about 1.5 Extension Development by Joseph Leblanc was (and is) a great help to a starter like me.

Still a long way to go though ;-)

[jalil]

who would test it for you ?

[Alfred]

who would test it for you ?

Well, me.........

Basically what I produce is not very 'high-end' and mostly very custom, so not intended to be distributed or usefull to anybody.

But if you're offering 

[AmyStephen]

Hey Alfred - glad to have you with us. Anyone interested can join the Developer 101 Skype Chat. We help one another learn, run ideas past each other and even would help with testing or walkthrus if someone wanted.

We also goof off and giggle, a lot. Please feel free to join in if you are interested!
Amy

[jalil]

who would test it for you ?

Well, me.........

Basically what I produce is not very 'high-end' and mostly very custom, so not intended to be distributed or usefull to anybody.

But if you're offering 

yeah, ok, i would test it, but what i was after is where would you actually upload it. i am facing that issue at the moment.
if there is such a place and you put it up there, i'm sure there would be a bunch of us amusing ourselves with it.

[AmyStephen]

yeah, ok, i would test it, but what i was after is where would you actually upload it. i am facing that issue at the moment.
if there is such a place and you put it up there, i'm sure there would be a bunch of us amusing ourselves with it.

Jalil -

I am starting to be confused by your posts. 

I have invited you a number of times to join the JoomlaCode repository called JBeginners. That is the place where we can place code as we learn and share it with one another and test it.

Is there some reason this will not work for you? If you sign up, one of us with authority will grant you access! If you want to participate, you are more than welcome, encouraged, and cordially invited to get involved.

Everyone is - Alfred, you can, as well! Get an ID and sign up with JBeginners.. We'd love to have you, too. The more, the merrier!
Amy

[jalil]

yeah, ok, i would test it, but what i was after is where would you actually upload it. i am facing that issue at the moment.
if there is such a place and you put it up there, i'm sure there would be a bunch of us amusing ourselves with it.

Jalil -

I am starting to be confused by your posts. 

I have invited you a number of times to join the JoomlaCode repository called JBeginners. That is the place where we can place code as we learn and share it with one another and test it.

Is there some reason this will not work for you? If you sign up, one of us with authority will grant you access! If you want to participate, you are more than welcome, encouraged, and cordially invited to get involved.

Everyone is - Alfred, you can, as well! Get an ID and sign up with JBeginners.. We'd love to have you, too. The more, the merrier!
Amy

well, am sorry if i am not able to deliver my point clearly or that i am not understood, and i don't want to pursue this anymore. it isn't an issue, merely an option i am recommending to be pursued, but i sensed that it is causing some confusion and agitation and that is not good. that is not the intention. and i have *already* signed up for joomlacode.org. the website is not functioning correctly as it should and is heavily loaded, why i don't know. i tried downloading J!RC2 and the speed is superb, but the forums and menus are slow in relation to the streams.
but i am *not* complaining, and i wish to stress this. i am in no position to complain at all. i'm not interested in the joomlacode.org problems. i don;t mean to sound unconcerned, but it isn't something i want to worry about.

i am looking perhaps some newbies that have websites we can share. this was offered intially by someone when we started this remember ? however i find myself alone in this now, so i have to acknowledge that and continue independently. no heart feelings and no problems i assure you, only that maybe i speak from a different world outside of joomla. we are all here anyways aren't we ? so my apologies for any misunderstanding and lets go on to have fun.

[AmyStephen]

Hm. I guess I don't know what to say, Jalil. We do have a resource called JBeginners on JoomlaCode. Personally, I'm thrilled they have allocated resources for this group. Now, if we experience slow downs, I am confident we can deal with it.

As far as confusion or agitation goes, there is no real worry, Jalil. It just seemed confusing to hear you say there is no place to upload and share applications as we work on them. There is such a place and we are all free to use it if we choose. You are choosing not to use it and that is well within your rights to do so.

As far as figuring out yet another place, I have no interest in asking someone else to provide for us when I believe we are already in good shape. But, again, you can choose to pursue another option, it's your right to do so.

Again, if you want to join us, that's great! No worries, either way! We're just learning to become a group, right?
Amy

[jalil]

Hm. I guess I don't know what to say, Jalil. We do have a resource called JBeginners on JoomlaCode. Personally, I'm thrilled they have allocated resources for this group. Now, if we experience slow downs, I am confident we can deal with it.

As far as confusion or agitation goes, there is no real worry, Jalil. It just seemed confusing to hear you say there is no place to upload and share applications as we work on them. There is such a place and we are all free to use it if we choose. You are choosing not to use it and that is well within your rights to do so.

As far as figuring out yet another place, I have no interest in asking someone else to provide for us when I believe we are already in good shape. But, again, you can choose to pursue another option, it's your right to do so.

Again, if you want to join us, that's great! No worries, either way! We're just learning to become a group, right?
Amy

ah, i see now where the misunderstanding is. you have in your mind that joomlacode.org is the center for all joomla coders. indeed.

but i see a slightly different picture. i see joomlacode.org as the *final* desitnation for the coders. and that they start out from anywhere really, and work their way up to joomlacode.org, that is *if* they are going that way. and that is what is am tryng to do. the bigger picture is that there will be websites specialising in joomla coding all over the world, and they would all be contributing to joomlacode.org, their beta or chi or whatever version that they feel is ready to to released worldwide. but *before* that, they would start out in their own backyard. so see Amy, my problem is , i don't *have* a backyard! lol.

they way you see it done is a a centralised approach which has its advantages and disadvantages as with most things. but this isn't how the internet is meant to be i think.

there may be a french effort say, and several webstes there doing some interesting things with joomla! and extensions. i would know about it through perhaps this forum, or through the french forum, but i don't expect them to be at joomlcode.org as yet.

[AmyStephen]

No, not at all! There have been, are and will continue to be groups of developers working out of various sites all over the world.

The only thing I have in mind is we have a group of learners who need a place to share code. JBeginners is available to us for that purpose. For me, problem solved! I don't need a backyard!

I appreciate you continuing to communicate,
Amy

[jalil]

No, not at all! There have been, are and will continue to be groups of developers working out of various sites all over the world.

The only thing I have in mind is we have a group of learners who need a place to share code. JBeginners is available to us for that purpose. For me, problem solved! I don't need a backyard!

I appreciate you continuing to communicate,
Amy

ok, our needs are different then. you have yours, so i would venture to look for mine. once i'm settled i would have no problems sharing codes and ideas with others. but i'm not yet settled down. if it's a problem doing what im trying to do by my posts here in this forum, do say so, and i will refrain. i am getting the feeling that what maybe this isn't the best place to do what i'm trying to do.

i have just started Amy. you are quite well ahead, so are the others i noticed. i am just discovering joomla!. thanks for your support. this forum would not have happened if you hadn't given it your vote, i remember that.

[AmyStephen]

You are causing no problems at all!  Just trying to understand what can be done to help you be successful. You are right, it takes time to figure all of it out. Just remember, we're here for you, too.

Amy

[Alfred]

Alfred, you can, as well!

Well, who am I to refuse such an offer...
I joined and just let's wait and see how it develops from there, at least I already did have some result from our chat session yesterday. That part now works thanks to Ian. So having a fresh pair of eyes looking at some stuff always helps!

[tjay]

Most of the progress I have made has been on the chats
so I would encourage you to jump in and try to code something. If you run into trouble post a specific question. I have seen many helpful answers posted here.
If you need a more interactive experience the chat is the way to go.

While I understand what Jalil is saying, I dont think it is possible. There is no magic key resource that is going to take someone from not knowing J1.5 coding to instant coder.
There are a ton of resources and more coming all the time. But a utopic resource that fits all needs for all levels of coders is just not realistic.

What can happen, is if coders at different levels get involved, learn, and share

For example, I am working on a phpbb3 J1.5 recent posts module. Why? well it is a good starting point for me at my experience level.
I know some PHP, and some SQL almost no 1.5 API
When it is done, I will write a full tutorial for how I got it done and share it.

It will be useless for people with absolutely no PHP or MySQL knowledge, and boring for people who know more than me.
I think the very basics of coding are best learned outside Joomla since so many resources exist for generic PHP and MySQL

[jalil]

While I understand what Jalil is saying, I dont think it is possible. There is no magic key resource that is going to take someone from not knowing J1.5 coding to instant coder.

Well there will be if i make one and pass it around. I know what you mean, i did some thinking into this and your points are correct, but they do no timply that it is impossible to do. So i will prove it possible. The only problem i have is that i shudder at the thought that the basic framework might change in future versions. and i am very concerned about this, because the way the leap from 1.0 to 1.5 was done is something i don't quite fancy and many developers share this. I do not quite understand the rush, but i suppose there must be a good reason to all that.

Since in that stage now, i am forced to bring from 0 to 1.0, and then from 1.0 to 1.5. I want to start with -1 to 0, meaning i want to introduce joomla to people who know nuts about computers. why i don't know, i just feel it would be beneficial. anyway, i think that is what i am good at so that is what i will do, and i enjoy coding so i will do that as well.

i think my main point is that the introduction to joomla is very geek, very technical and is difficult for wider audience to appreciate. i also found this is absolutely the worng place to say such things, so i'd beter shut up an just do what i can to help out. it's safer that way. otherwise, a bunch of joombies might misunderstand my intentions and i'm fried !.

Thanks much.