Care regarding reviews of commercial extensions - again

[brian]

You've locked th thread again withiout allowing comment

I am glad to see that you have edited the "review" but imho it is still wrong!

The first two comments made apply to ALL web mased mail applications not just this one and also apply to the core mass mail function of joomla.

[Tonie]

I agree that this counts for all apps that do email sending, but I think it does have information a user can be made aware of. Comments like: "use this component, but please watch for this before starting" are valid parts of a review.

To the other point, I should have deleted the first post before it was edited.

[brian]

They are valid if it also says "the same is true for all php web based mailers". Without that statement it looks as if it is only true for this extension which is biased and unfair.

I also note that on http://www.phil-taylor.com/Joomla/Compo ... Messenger/ it says that before purchasing you should read http://listmessenger.com/index.php/faq. Point 6 (http://listmessenger.com/index.php/faq#q006) states the capabilities of listmessenger.

It wasnt that long ago that a blanket statement and warning was made about ALL statistics extensions on the site although that appears to have been removed now.

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

It appears that even after notifing editors, factually incorrect reviews are allowed.

Note these reviews:

http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... 35/#action
Review One States: "Newsletters can not automatically be published on your website" Factually incorrect! Past sent newsletters are publically available at a URL, E.g. http://www.phil-taylor.com/index.php?op ... sk=archive

Review 4 - titled "Has long term issues" - is this a fair title????
"For a couple of months we were recommending mosListMessenger to all our clients. However, after using it ourselves we uncovered a number of things to look out for:"   So this implies that the three points following are " a number of things to watch out for [in mosListMessenger]" ??  Again misleading at best!

http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/
Review 3:
Title - "Buy Bugs" - Is this a fair title?
"When I bought this component it was the only one available. It was the most buggy component I've even installed, but that can hapen with a beta version. What made this worse was that there was no language file. So with each upgrade I had to do all the translations again!
When Mostets Tree was released I took my loss, dumped MosDirectory and bought the Tree directory, which is far better."

So lets look at this review... the guy bought ages ago when mosDirectory was in beta - over 2 years ago - he notes it had bugs in beta stage (over 2 years ago) then he goes on to mention other directory components and states they are better, because he is comparing beta buggy software?  Is this really a review or just biased advertising!


Review 5: "As all of Phil's components their giant weakness is that there is no internationalization or multilanguage support."
This is factually incorrect! Phil Taylor components DO HAVE language support, however mosDirectory does not. - A misleading review again



I have only mentioned inaccuracies on my own components, however I see that my components are not the only ones to have factually incorrect reviews when have been allowed and not edited.

It appears that three editors do not have enough time to moderate, check facts and edit reviews - maybe the number of editors could be increased so that the quality of the extensions site is not diluted by spam reviews, inaccuratte reviews and blatantly factually incorrect reviews??????

[brad]

.. or I guess we can just remove the entire extensions site.. - I'm not serious.

On a serious note though, Phil have you contacted the people who made these apparent incorrect reviews? Perhaps get them to request their comments be changed? That would solve all these issues you are trying to get sorted here.

You can't seriously expect that one of the editors would know all the details about one of your products, or anyone else's. There are over 700 listed on the site now. What will be next? Editors having to verify that they have tested a particular product for a certain length of time, have a legal copy, and are knowledgeable enough to know the product inside out. As for spam reviews, please use the 'report this extension' link so that the editors can be alerted to remove the particular bit of spam.

I can see both POV, yours and the editors, but it's ironic that on the forum people complain about heavy handed moderating, and yet you are now asking for a more heavy handed moderating approach to the extensions site. Next people will be attacking the editors for not approving, or editing their comments on the extensions site.

Some extra editors *may* help, however as you have just demonstrated, acting as an editor is more than just approving someones comments, and it is not just about having the time. As this situation so correctly demonstrates, adding extra things (like templates) to the extensions site at this stage is not a good idea - please see other thread on this issue however.

People say factually incorrect things about, for example, Joomla! all the time. We can only do what we can to make an effort to clarify things, but in the end, people will always make their own mind up, and in many cases, speak their mind with I might add, factually incorrect informmation.

They are valid if it also says "the same is true for all php web based mailers". Without that statement it looks as if it is only true for this extension which is biased and unfair.

But then the user will say: "I've never tried out all php mailers... how can I comment on them?" - Just trying to show you the otherside of the argument.

It wasnt that long ago that a blanket statement and warning was made about ALL statistics extensions on the site although that appears to have been removed now.

So why do you have to bring it up again, if the problem was solved? Unless of course, you were saying it to thank the editors....

Anyway, points made, some reviews may needs more 'moderating', and the editors are aware and have noted this. Please, everyone, give us/them the chance to follow through on these points before you unleash another tirade upon individuals who give their time as volunteers to support the community.

[brian]

They are valid if it also says "the same is true for all php web based mailers". Without that statement it looks as if it is only true for this extension which is biased and unfair.

But then the user will say: "I've never tried out all php mailers... how can I comment on them?" - Just trying to show you the otherside of the argument.

Thats a valid point. You however do have personal experience of configirung servers etc and know that the issue here is down to the server configuration and not the extension. That is what moderation is for isnt it to correct misunderstandings?

It wasnt that long ago that a blanket statement and warning was made about ALL statistics extensions on the site although that appears to have been removed now.

So why do you have to bring it up again, if the problem was solved? Unless of course, you were saying it to thank the editors....

I brought it up as I had intended to point to that statement to show that the site does already make blanket statements etc only to find that it wasnt there anymore.

Anyway, points made, some reviews may needs more 'moderating', and the editors are aware and have noted this. Please, everyone, give us/them the chance to follow through on these points before you unleash another tirade upon individuals who give their time as volunteers to support the community.

I was not launching a tirade against anyone at all. However Tonie gave the impression that the issue was closed with the last edits he made to the review.

As for extra editors etc then I would have thought it was only a good idea to increase the number to lighten the load.

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

Once again Brad you think by posting to the forum I am having a go at you and your teams - this is not the case.

Phil have you contacted the people who made these apparent incorrect reviews? Perhaps get them to request their comments be changed? That would solve all these issues you are trying to get sorted here.

And exactly how would one do that when the extensions site doesn't give contact information about reviewers

As for spam reviews, please use the 'report this extension' link so that the editors can be alerted to remove the particular bit of spam.

So you have to report a extension in order to report a review that makes great sense right

and yet you are not asking for a more heavy handed moderating approach to the extensions site.

Err??? I thought that was exactly what I was asking for

As this situation so correctly demonstrates, adding extra things (like templates) to the extensions site at this stage is not a good idea - please see other thread on this issue however.

Not sure why you raise this - I never asked about adding more things - my angle at this moment is to prevent factually incorrect reviews.

We can only do what we can to make an effort to clarify things,

Err Excuse me but I AM MAKING EVERY EFFORT TO CLARIFY THINGS !!! I approached you personally first, and then the editors, and now you are telling me to contact uncontactable reviewers - Brad get a grip !  Only your teams have access to remove/edit these reviews - who else should I approach? The Queen of England? The FBI? ??

points made, some reviews may needs more 'moderating', and the editors are aware and have noted this.

Points made - but no real action taken  - editors are aware, and have been since I last brought this to their attention - yet no real changes made...

before you unleash another tirade upon individuals who give their time as volunteers to support the community.

That chesnut again - how many times have I heard that...  I was not launching abuse on anyone - rather contacting editors whos job (paid or unpaid) is to moderate and edit reviews!!!

That is what moderation is for isnt it to correct misunderstandings?

I thought so - but in this case moderation is to say "We have noted the issue".

Care regarding reviews of commercial extensions - again

ALSO this is NOT about Commercial components - as I said in my other post, and I can back this up if needed, there are quite a few factually incorrect reviews about NON-commercial components in the directory as well

[brad]

FYI I do not edit/moderate/approve any extensions. But I guess that explains the personal nature of this issue and how you feel I am involved.

I brought it up as I had intended to point to that statement to show that the site does already make blanket statements etc only to find that it wasn't there anymore.

So even though the issue was solved to your satisfaction, you still are upset and feel the need to bring it up again. Perhaps it was the time taken to correct it a few months ago that is still annoying you. I'm sorry about that, but right here and now 'we' have done all we can to address the 'statistics' problem.

The issue is closed, the point has been made, now just give the editors a break to implement some of this. Please.

PS anyone who wants to volunteer as an editor, feel free to make yourself available to Tonie privately. No promises, but if you want to help, there is one opportunity.

[me=brad]is off to bed now. Have a good day everyone [/me]

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

er? The issue is NOT resolved closed !  Points might have been noted but the issue is far from being resolved!

Editied to suit

[brad]

I never said resolved. I said point made, issues raised and noted.

[brian]

FYI I do not edit/moderate/approve any extensions. But I guess that explains the personal nature of this issue and how you feel I am involved.

I brought it up as I had intended to point to that statement to show that the site does already make blanket statements etc only to find that it wasn't there anymore.

So even though the issue was solved to your satisfaction, you still are upset and feel the need to bring it up again. Perhaps it was the time taken to correct it a few months ago that is still annoying you. I'm sorry about that, but right here and now 'we' have done all we can to address the 'statistics' problem.

The issue is closed, the point has been made, now just give the editors a break to implement some of this. Please.

PS anyone who wants to volunteer as an editor, feel free to make yourself available to Tonie privately. No promises, but if you want to help, there is one opportunity.

[me=brad]is off to bed now. Have a good day everyone [/me]

Sorry Brad but I think you are getting very confused here if you are talking about me and the statistics as I had no issues with this warning at all so there was no "issue to resolve to my satisfaction". This is my one and only post on the statistics issue afaik http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic ... #msg309100. I will accept an apology from you for your accusations

[compass]

Quote
Phil have you contacted the people who made these apparent incorrect reviews? Perhaps get them to request their comments be changed? That would solve all these issues you are trying to get sorted here.

And exactly how would one do that when the extensions site doesn't give contact information about reviewers Huh

Actually Phil, you skyped me with a link to your forum post here, so I think you knew how to contact me . Want be to post it with the datestamp?

I think your statement there is misleading at best.

[AmyStephen]

Brad is absolutely 100% correct in reply #4

Frankly, I would do one of two things ONLY
1) Allow comments - no editing at all - no filtering - no judging - nothing - only remove the absolute obscene, racist, criminal, personal attack remarks.
2) Do not allow comments. Do not allow ratings. Just list things.

That's it. Because, as Brad points out and for some reason people are not giving these guys credit, trying to "moderate" open and free feedback and somehow winding up with happy feedback providers and happy feedback receivers is an IMPOSSIBLE JOB!

Phil - everyone knows you have an EXCELLENT reputation as a developer. I don't care what anyone says in a little comment about you. It would not impact MY OPINION of your skill which I perceive and hear to be MASSIVELY AMAZING SKILL.

And, I do not believe the comment in question was even suggesting you didn't have skill, but rather that a particulare method doesn't work for high volume situations IN THE OPINION of the comment submitter.

This is not a big deal!

Why do I get to comment? Hell if I know - I guess because this forum does allow people to voice their opinion even if it's really none of their business.  Phil - you have not been harmed. Trust me. We all think you are great. You are a superstar PHP geek in these parts. If you held a concert, we'd all be there, lighters in the air. 

Amy

[brian]

Quote
Phil have you contacted the people who made these apparent incorrect reviews? Perhaps get them to request their comments be changed? That would solve all these issues you are trying to get sorted here.

And exactly how would one do that when the extensions site doesn't give contact information about reviewers Huh

Actually Phil, you skyped me with a link to your forum post here, so I think you knew how to contact me . Want be to post it with the datestamp?

I think your statement there is misleading at best.

In your case yes but perhaps not in others

[brian]

Actualy Amy I suspect that his reputation may have been harmed in this case as it was pointed out to him by a potential customer and just because you as a regular forum visitor know that Phil can write good extensions does not mean that a casual visitor to the extension site would know that

[AmyStephen]

So, Brian, again, and I am serious - there should be either:

1) NO comment moderation at all (seriously.)

-or-

2) No comments.

Because moderating is an impossible job! I have read lots of these frustrations and I am certain it is frustrating for people like Phil. But, the job canNOT be done. Do you see my point?

I would prefer to see them do option #1 and let me use my own filtering system against the raw data. Then, the extension folks aren't all wrapped up in this type of activity and can start moving into new areas, like those suggested in this forum, yesterday! Yes?

And, I am absolutely serious about Phil's reputation. One comment will not tumble that. He is a PHP gawd.

Thanks...Amy

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

Quote
Phil have you contacted the people who made these apparent incorrect reviews? Perhaps get them to request their comments be changed? That would solve all these issues you are trying to get sorted here.

And exactly how would one do that when the extensions site doesn't give contact information about reviewers Huh

Actually Phil, you skyped me with a link to your forum post here, so I think you knew how to contact me . Want be to post it with the datestamp?

I think your statement there is misleading at best.

I "assumed" it was you - "compass" is as known as "brad" "Jason407" "MasterChief"  or even "prazgod" - > SOME people are KNOWN by their online handle ONLY.

The extensions site DOESN'T give a way to contact reviewers - clicking the hyperlinked name of a reviewer just reloads the same page

And, I am absolutely serious about Phil's reputation. One comment will not tumble that. He is a PHP gawd.

I never started all this to protect my reputation, I simply pointed out that components of mine, and other open source ones, have had factually incorrect information placed in reviews - I asked editors to remove this.  I never made a big issue out of it! I simply asked for the reviewes to be amended or removed.

See my original post at: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,70190.0.html

I strongly request this review be removed or edited to provide a fair review of the component.  As it stands it is 66% rubbish !!!

I then went on to ask a question (Not as a flame, but because I genuinly did not know the real process (If indeed there was one):

Is checking facts part of the editorial process or does the process rely on a component developer watching his own listings and reporting them?

and then lastly before the thread was closed:

This is all very bizzare!

I am not trying to blow this out of proportion and I am not trying to attack the editors, Brad or anyone else who is offended (!!) I simply wanted inaccurate and factually incorrect information removed from reviews - there was no automated way of doing this, so I contacted Brad on skype and he asked me to post in the forum for the editors to read (Although now he tells me to use the REPORT THIS EXTENSION link (Why use that when its a comment I want to report??)

If anyone is at fault for blowing this simple request out of proportation it is not me.

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

I am not interested in the politics or flaming, Im not here to have a fight - I have ONE - SIMPLE - REQUEST.

Please can you remove inaccurate and factually incorrect information from reviews in the extensions site, when the review have been looked over by the developer, and information has been provided to editors that proves false and factually correct informaton is contained in the review? 

Is this an outragious request? I dont think so.

If this request is to difficult to process then I will remove my extensions from the directory.
I do not believe that I am asking too much.
If ANYONE believes I am asking too much then answer this:
What exactly does an editor of the site do?
What is the real process I should be following to have reviews moderated? (Brad has already told me two ways and both have failed to resolve the issue)



[MOD Note: removed excessive font emphasis for whole article]

[ot2sen]

The request is valid. Will look into this 

Answer for the the "What does an Editor of the site do?" question :
All the things that you guys and gals do not see 

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

Many thanks to ot2sen for taking the original request seriously and for, once hearing about this thread, speedily resolving the request without taking things personally or blowing it out of proportion, for personally chatting to me on Skype and for taking the time to investigate, identify and resolve the issue. 

Changes have/are being made to the reviews as I type.

Thanks again to ot2sen (Maybe other Joomla senior people could take a leaf out of his book - less chatter about issues, more action on issues!)

[AmyStephen]

If ANYONE believes I am asking too much then answer this:
What exactly does an editor of the site do?

With all due respect, I think you are asking too much! Phil - this is an impossible job. That is all Brad was trying to say. Please. Give him a break, here!

This should give you some idea of how impossible their job is:  You want these "inaccuracies" removed? I want them to STOP all editing immediately! I want, as an adult, to use my own well-tuned filter You can add your own follow up comment to address inaccuracies. I'll read those, too, and make up my own mind - thank you very much!

Now, how are they going to make us both happy? Do you get what Brad was trying to say?  :P

I realize you are frustrated and it sounded like Brad and, now ot2sen, are trying to take care of you! And, I am not trying to add pressure to already overworked, over-pressured, unpaid people running the extensions site. If they want to keep trying to do this impossible job, more power to them! But, we are NOT ALL EVER going to be HAPPY with how they do it.

And, Phil, I am not trying to further frustrate, you, either! But, you asked ANYONE - so, I am answering!

Now, really, you have a steller reputation. Excellent work over LONG PERIODS of time. It would take a TON to shake my confidence in you. I can look at things and make up my own mind. Thank you for all you have contributed to Mambo and then to Joomla! Really - your work is appreciated and I know this has been difficult. I am sorry for that.

But, Brad did not cause this frustration and he is doing the best that he can and he did try to help, here. Give it a day or so and think if that is not true. Please. Thanks for listening. For what it's worth, okay? Amy

+++++++

Phil - one last thing - Brad is going to be torked at me for even posting this. He does not like it when people defend him! lol...he would prefer that I not say anything, I am quite certain! He would prefer this all stop! So, sorry Brad. Sorry Phil! Sorry extension editors!  :P  Everyone -- keep up the good work and stay encouraged!  All of you!

[compass]

Changes have/are being made to the reviews as I type.

Yes, I worked with Brad to revise the review

[stingrey]

As emphasized several times by Brad - please give our unpaid hard working moderators TIME to address issues brought up.
The original report was made 19 June 2006, 06:08:20. 

The team do have other `real world` duties that take precedence over what they provide to the community during their spare time.



Also note I have no idea how a moderator can judge the factual basis of a comment, unless they have utilized and tested the extensions themselves.  There are now 700+ extensions, there is no way this is close to possible even at a cursorary level.  Then there is the added complication that for commercial components testing is simply not possible unless developers wish to provide this to moderators/testers for free.



Can I end by again reemphasizing that sacred thing WE ALL have little off - TIME

[stingrey]

If this request is to difficult to process then I will remove my extensions from the directory.

Risking inflaming the topic further - but there is a point to which I put up with such comments - all I can say is if you wish to remove your commercial/non-commercial extensions from the freely available community resource, managed by unpaid volunteers for the community during their free time, then that is your right.

However, if it is supposed to come across as some sort of threat than I find it a rather curlish at best

[brian]

Replied to Reys posts off list to clarify some inaccuracies and mis assumptions which I feel sure he was not aware of before posting

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

The only "inflaming the topic further" has been done by editors, moderators and Mr Joomla Brad.

how a moderator can judge the factual basis of a comment,

I did not say that they should be able to - I am happy to review reviews and point the problems out. Re-read this:

Please can you remove inaccurate and factually incorrect information from reviews in the extensions site, when the review have been looked over by the developer, and information has been provided to editors that proves false and factually correct informaton is contained in the review?

HOWEVER after I have pointed out in, no incertain terms, that a review was inaccurate then I expect editors to do editing... after all someone has alerted them to the factual status of a review - that is surly not expecting too much.

And as for giving time - I was happy to let this happen over time, no one said that it had to be done instantly!!!!!!!!!! However other people replied to the threads and made this such a big issue.

I personally am not at fault here.  I simply pointed out to Brad, who asked me to post here, that there were several inaccurate and factually incorrect reviews that I wanted addressing.  I followed the rules, and I have been and will be patient.

It appears that Joomla Admins are all on a short fuse and take everything personally and assume everyone wants things immediately.

At no time was it my intention for this to be a slaging off match or a flame bait - I just wanted some small modifications made when some one had time

This is my last word on the matter - Its clear that I asked the wrong thing.

If this request is to difficult to process then I will remove my extensions from the directory. |

This is not a threat.  It was not meant as such or as an axe,. However if a developer cannot reasonably ask an editor to remove factually incorrect reviews about his own components then this is not a place to advertise commercial components as anyone (even competitors) could post anything they wanted - factually true or not - and there is nothing the developer can do about it.  As the extensions directory is now the top referer to my website I want only factually correct information in the reviews.

I still dont think I am asking to much that editors remove factually incorrect reviews when the facts are presented to them by the developer.

[PhilTaylor-Prazgod]

I wish I had kept my big mouth closed. 

[Tonie]

I opened a new thread here: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,70390.0.html. Let's find a good description for reviews so they can be used by all: delevelopers, reviewer, review reviewer. This way it will be much easier to reference for everybody. Would this also be a good time to close this thread? Having a lot more he said/she said posts is not solving anything IMHO, no offense meant to anybody.

[brian]

I've replied to your other thread.

Personaly I would not like to see the thread closed as I am personaly against any thread being closed. It is often the act of closing threads that causes people to get annoyed in the first place. Especially when the thread closer says it is resolved when it clearly isnt. If it hadnt been closed twice before then people wouldnt get so annoyed at being censored in the first place

[AmyStephen]

I am personally against any thread being closed. It is often the act of closing threads that causes people to get annoyed in the first place.

I agree