K-12 Joomla Access Control - need private info available and still protect

[tncare45]

I'm a web designer (Joomla! & CMS newbie) trying to help a small, non-profit school. I've been researching for weeks and decided I like Joomla! the best. I think based on the wonderful posts here and the documentation I've found, that Joomla! will be a fantastic solution for the school. They only have 30 faculty and maybe 200 students. They basically have no data infrastructure, only internet access.

The main obstacle I'm facing is making arrangements for parents and staff to view/edit private information about students such as grades, health notes, emergency contacts, attendance and so on. The access rights in the stndard Joomla! user definitions don't have the flexibility to do this (as near as I can tell).

So my question is...

What method(s), extension(s), add-on(s) would you kind souls recommend to accomplish this or am I just dreaming? I'm looking at JacPlus to expand group-level access rights but, I'm concerned it may not work for their needs. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[steveoc]

I work at nearly an identical school in terms of numbers of students and teachers.

It sounds like you might want a database component. Here are some:

http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/

It is unclear though how extensively you want to manage data such as grades. Are you look for some kind of "gradebook" functionality? Or are you just reporting out an individual grade to parents? Are you managing attendance data, or just reporting something such as quarterly attendance?

Steve

[tncare45]

Steve - Thanks for the reply. You are correct, it IS unclear how extensively I want to manage data such as grades
I smile because it's an unknown at this point. I think the client actually has a 'gradebook product' that has limited participation and apparently, it's not part of required procedures. There are many at the school that are somewhat allergic to PC's. I need to look further into what a gradebook can actually do, don't I?

I don't think I want Joomla! to manage daily data (yet). Parents, students, teachers and school administrators would need access to protected summary information like semester grades, health info., emergency contact names, quarterly attendance and pertinent student records. Parents and students would not have any publishing rights except perhaps contact information/address changes.

May I ask what solutions you are looking at (or have implemented) for your school? THANKS!

[steveoc]

Thus far, I have deployed Joomla for the front end of our website. This is for the general public: community, parents, students, etc. I have not implemented levels of access to published information. Levels come into play over who can submit news, who can authorize publication. who can publish without authorization. Additionally, we have a gallery--Coppermine--for the general public. Again everyone has access to the photos, but upload and publishing priviledges apply.

The next component is Moodle which is the pedagogical piece. Teachers can choose to use it as they may. Most will probably not use it at first. Others will simply use it as a way to post homework. Some will proide additional resources such as valuble links. Yet others might interactive online  learning though discussions, wikis, quizes, etc.

Moodle can take care of some of the gradebook functions and an attendance module is in development. These, especially the attendance module, do not appear to be ready for prime-time. We will be exploring options for these functions over the next few days. It probably will not be associated with the website and may even be part of an intranet--although that may change depending upon what we find.

I have not attemped to bridge or integrate any of these applications, nor do I plan to at this point. Each element has a different function. There is no need for students who are registered in the Moodle to be able to use the same log-in for Joomla or Coppermine as most students would not be regular contributors to either.

Steve 

[Slixter]

You could check out this school component, it still needs some work but it has potential.

http://extensions.joomla.org/component/ ... Itemid,35/

--Slixter

[tncare45]

Steve - I did a minor test installation with Moodle a couple of weeks back. It seems to be quite impressive with some nice tools built-in, and allot of learning materials have apparently been produced. The deal-breaker for me was (what appeared to be) the inability of Moodle's gradebook to handle the face-to-face courses. And overall, my school client just isn't ready for prime-time-Moodle.

Perhaps I should follow your lead and not try to wrap everything inside Joomla! It would be an optimistic project for a lowly designer like me.

I am amazed by the amount of information available on these Joomla! forums. It's just incomprehensible. Thousands and thousands of posts makes it hard to zero-in on the support you're looking for. I found a Joomla hero called mcsmom that seems to know how a school site could be planned. She apparently knows her stuff. Here's a link to her latest posts: http://forum.joomla.org/index.php?action=profile;u=466;sa=showPosts

Slixter - Thanks for the link. I had trouble viewing the demo and had other issues. Thanks anyway.

[steveoc]

Wrapping everything into Joomla is not a problem--especially if you use the right template. I like a template that allows me to eliminate all modules and will allow the wrapped page to fill under the header--leaving only the top menu. From there one could tweak the css file of the wrapped application to more closely resemble the joomla template. That's what I will be working on in the next several days. I just don't see any advantage in integrating the log-ins at this point.

In Moodle the Gradebook Plus Module willl handle the addition of a graded item manually. I know that lead developer Martin Dougiamas is very determined to have it or some variant fully integrated into the core package ASAP. In any case, I highly recommend Moodle. I don't think Joomla will ever be able to do what Moodle does, nor do I believe Moodle will be well suited for what Joomla does.

At this point we will go for something separate--even if we have to put together a sql datase ourself. The thing about grades and attendance is that they have to be rock solid and proven as they are so vitally important to the school. A problem can be absolutely catastrophic.

[mcsmom]

I have been testing using a separate database of student records on a secure site and civicrm as the way to access it.

Also I use jaclplus for access control.

[tncare45]

mcsmom -

Thanks for your many informative posts, and for sharing your extensive experience with us.  Could you enlighten me a little more? If this is asking too much, I certainly understand.

I would like to incorporate your described scenario:

First I have the public joomla! site with all the official information, calendar etc.

Then each teacher has a mamblog which I rename "homework journal" where they can post homework and other announcements for the students.

Each class also has a homepage that I created but that I made the teacher the author of. THat way the teachers (who are all editors) can change the pages and put whatever they want, but I and the other managers can still edit if we see a problem or the teacher is really computer allergic.

Each class also has a category in the gallery, a separate calendar, a category in docman, a category in weblinks  as well as other items. There are many joomla extensions that will let you create categories and when I want to do something new I just make a category for each class and link it to the class menu. Yes, I also have a separate menu for each class. 

I use jaclplus to get finer control since I want teachers to also be able to have some genuinely private teacher only areas and also to be able to keep an eye on the kids.

If you make a section called clases and then a category called classes, you can make a content item for each teacher within that category. You can create them, but then you can switch the author name so that each teacher is the author of his or her their own page.  That functions as the homepage for the class. The teachers can edit the page from the front end using one of the editors--I'd recommend one like jce that lets you paste from Word since some might like to be able to do that.

I think I also forget to mention that I have a news category for each class so the teachers can post news and not have to worry about how to get it connected to their homepage (because they can have a link to "news" and also a latest news module.

I have installed the following components, but really don't know where to start Would you have a recommended order?

Community Builder 1.0.1 – Will allow login to be directed to Teacher’s own  Menu?
CB g2bridge plug-in – Bridges Gallery2 to CB?
JACLPlus 1.0.10 – For Extended Access Control (Phase II)
CIVICRM – For accessing student records (Phase II)
DOCMan v1.3 RC2
EXTCALENDAR 0.9.2
Facile Forms 1.4.6
Joomla explorer 1.4.0
Mass Mail (2-14-04)
Contact Manager (default w/ joomla!)?
Moslate Version: 0.5.4 (Translation: 0.5.1)
ReMOSitory 3.4.0
JCE Editor Mambot, version 1.0.4
JCE Administration Component version 1.0.4
Templates Manager plugin for JCE, version 1.0.0
HTML Template plugins for JCE


I am a Dreamweaver designer and a Joomla! / CMS newbie so, this is all fairly foreign to me.  I’m not yet a database guy but, I went through many posts and tutorials (including the beginners guide and Joomla! Tutorials) - so I only have a slippery grip on Joomla! basic concepts. I’ve been practicing on my joomla! test site but I should probably trash it all and start over. My fear stems from not knowing the logical order of an application (like this) using so many add-ons with potentially overlapping functionality. For example: In how many of the above components can the users be managed? I want to avoid the caveats that would be obvious to you.

Right now, I would like to focus on user management of the Teachers, setting up the classes and determine which components to use to produce the desired results. I will think about the access control for private data sometime in the future - if I can get that far.

Thanks,

Kendell (aka tncare45)

[mcsmom]

Community Builder 1.0.1 – Will allow login to be directed to Teacher’s own  Menu?

One thing you can do is have the login redirect (the page that the user goes to after logging in) go to their community builder profiles. That might work really well for you. because you can use the plugins to give them access to their parts of the site.

CB g2bridge plug-in – Bridges Gallery2 to CB?

I haven't tried this gallery so I don't know, but if it makes a CB tab that will be very useful. I think teachers who have digital cameras like to post the images, you just need to help them learn how.

JACLPlus 1.0.10 – For Extended Access Control (Phase II)
CIVICRM – For accessing student records (Phase II)

I agree--hold off on these until you get the basic site operating and your users engaged with it.

DOCMan v1.3 RC2

Make a category for each teacher and for the administration and anyone else who has files, especially pdfs and word processor files, that need to be uploaded.

EXTCALENDAR 0.9.2
Facile Forms 1.4.6

Joomla explorer 1.4.0

Essentiall, but not used by anyone but super administrators.

Mass Mail (2-14-04)
Contact Manager (default w/ joomla!)?

These come with joomla--if you want a mass emailer that someone can use from the front end, you should use one of the newsetter components like YANC or Letterman.

Moslate Version: 0.5.4 (Translation: 0.5.1)

This you might use when you want to do certain things.

ReMOSitory 3.4.0

Most likely you won't use this although who knows?

JCE Editor Mambot, version 1.0.4
JCE Administration Component version 1.0.4
Templates Manager plugin for JCE, version 1.0.0
HTML Template plugins for JCE

JCS is a good editor--I would add the image manager plugin since it makes it easier for users to insert images.



Okay, one model is to have the teachers log in  and go to their profiles. From their they can see the tabs with all of their content, their galleries and so on.

Have a section called teachers and a category for each class. Then I would really start by making one content item to act as the home for each class. Even though you make the page, you should change the author to the teacher for that class. This will make the page show up on their profile list of content. You can just make each page say "Welcome to Room xxx" to start.

Then create a new menu "class home pages." Make a content item link to each of the pages you just made. This will be the way that parents and kids get to the class home pages.

For right now, just add a general component links to the gallery and docman to your user menu.

That's enough to get you started and it gives you basis to do the rest. 

[tncare45]

mscmom - Thank-you for your guidance and exceptional commitment to the Joomla! community forums here. I really appreciate your response. I've spent the greater part of today (and tonight) working on this puppy, and I have made decent progress I guess.

fyi.. The CB g2bridge plug-in provides a tab but I will need to tweak as it states the component is not installed. I think I need g1 first.

Only have a couple of questions just now..

I'm assuming I need both the regular usermenu and the CBuser menu?

I'm not accessing all the desired components on the tabs. These are the 4 tabs and their messages:

Articles (works as expected, shows list of authors' items)
Forum (Simpleboard forum component is not installed. Please contact your site administrator) Shows as published Plugin
Blog (Mamblog blogger component is not installed. Please contact your site administrator)
G2Bridge (_G2BRIDGE_GALLERYNOTINSTALLED)

What can I expect to have operational from the CB users' tabs?

Thanks!

[mcsmom]

If you want mamblog, you should install it, otherwise you should be able to go to the CB plugin menu and unpublish that tab. Same thing with simpleboard.

In terms of menus, in reality you can put everything into one big menu or divide it up. What I have on my site is a "community menu" that has the things for everyone and then separate menus for parents, students, staff.That is one way to control access to specific things. although not secure. I think you have to decide what looks good and is functional for you.

[tncare45]

I'm having issues with the calendar I've selected (ExtCal). Can you recommend one that allows the public to expand and view events per date but not submit events? It also needs to have a mini-calendar for all pages. Thanks!

[tncare45]

mcsmom - If the school actually has 120 classes, 30 teachers and 320 students, do you think this is still the way to go??

Okay, one model is to have the teachers log in  and go to their profiles. From their they can see the tabs with all of their content, their galleries and so on.

Have a section called teachers and a category for each class. Then I would really start by making one content item to act as the home for each class. Even though you make the page, you should change the author to the teacher for that class. This will make the page show up on their profile list of content. You can just make each page say "Welcome to Room xxx" to start.

Then create a new menu "class home pages." Make a content item link to each of the pages you just made. This will be the way that parents and kids get to the class home pages.

For right now, just add a general component links to the gallery and docman to your user menu.

That's enough to get you started and it gives you basis to do the rest. 

And if it were you, how long would it take to build just the structure?

Thank-you, thank-you, thank-you

[mcsmom]

If you use community builder it doesn't take any longer to do 120 than  10. They will just automatically have their profile and you can display the staff meu with the profile and it will work well.

In terms of calendars, I have found it well worth it to pay for a commercial calendar. Thyme and Easyphpcalendar both have lots of joomla users. They do have learning curves, but not too bad to get the hang off.

[tncare45]

Really? You blew me away with that one!   Your skills are light-years ahead of mine (obviously).

I understand that CB will display their profile and they can see the Class pages (articles) I have created for that teacher. What I don't understand is how these 120 classes will magically appear and have the specific teacher assigned as the author/editor.

Also, how does the staff menu get displayed within their profile?

I must be making this harder than it seems. Any chance you can break this whole process down further? Thx!

Thanks for the calendar tip too.

[mcsmom]

Ah, I see, no the pages won't magically appear. However, you could make a standard page and then import a copy of it for each class/teacher and then assign the teacher as the author of each page. If you have a spreadsheet with the list of classes/teachers you can make a simple html page and put a copy into each row (assuming that a row represents a class). Then you can import the whole thing into the jos_content table in mysql.


The staff menu is a module. You go to the module manager and find the menu link that goes to the profiles and tell the menu to display there.

[AGoss]

then assign the teacher as the author of each page

What pages/articles do you create as a basis for each teacher?  I take it that if a teacher requests an additional page that you would have to create it manually.  Instead of setting up all the teachers at once could you have them register and create the pages as they register? 

[tncare45]

mcsmom -

The staff menu is a module. You go to the module manager and find the menu link that goes to the profiles and tell the menu to display there.

I HATE to whine  I have searched over and over and over for a menu link in module manager that goes to profiles, cb profiles ANY Profiles. This is as close as I've found - mod_comprofilermoderator or mod_comprofileronline. Neither seems correct to me. Do they you?

Have you been referring to Joomla! particulars in MySQL, as opposed to straight Joomla administation? - that might explain allot. Thanks for making the distinction on the import idea. I hope I can get a handle on that process! I don't know MySQL any better than Joomla but I'm getting closer.

Continuing down frustration road, I don't see that many useful CB plug-ins that I need. Joomapolis doesn't list many. Where are they?

Thx.

[mcsmom]

In the menu, make a ink to the comprofiler component. That will take any user to his/her profile.

To get to someone else's profile you have a few choices,

1. use the list function in community builder and make a list of names that lets you click on the name and go to the profile.
2. hard link to a specific profile using a url link.

This is an example; http://www.manhattancountryschool.org/i ... e&user=191

you need the user number.

[tncare45]

I understand now. Thx.

[koltz]

I'm a web designer (Joomla! & CMS newbie) trying to help a small, non-profit school. I've been researching for weeks and decided I like Joomla! the best. I think based on the wonderful posts here and the documentation I've found, that Joomla! will be a fantastic solution for the school. They only have 30 faculty and maybe 200 students. They basically have no data infrastructure, only internet access.

The main obstacle I'm facing is making arrangements for parents and staff to view/edit private information about students such as grades, health notes, emergency contacts, attendance and so on. The access rights in the stndard Joomla! user definitions don't have the flexibility to do this (as near as I can tell).

So my question is...

What method(s), extension(s), add-on(s) would you kind souls recommend to accomplish this or am I just dreaming? I'm looking at JacPlus to expand group-level access rights but, I'm concerned it may not work for their needs. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

I think Joomla doesn't really have anything that is as extensive as you want.  What you should look at is an open-source student management system like Centre or one of the others.  Most of these have all the features built in and allows parent access.  Actually most school district student management software (that they purchase) now has some form to do this since NCLB kind of requires it.

Corey

[tncare45]

I investigated Centre, Focus, Moodle, Schooltool and a few others in my quest for the right solution. To me, the only one with a one-size-fits-all potential, is Joomla! There seems to be billions of components available for Joomla, and if one can assemble the perfect storm - one would really have something! Unfortunately, learning the in's and out's via trial and error is not much fun.  To say that there is a steep learning curve is an understatement (it's purely a vertical line for me). Thanks for your input.

[igeoffi]

I investigated Centre, Focus, Moodle, Schooltool and a few others in my quest for the right solution. To me, the only one with a one-size-fits-all potential, is Joomla! There seems to be billions of components available for Joomla, and if one can assemble the perfect storm - one would really have something! Unfortunately, learning the in's and out's via trial and error is not much fun.  To say that there is a steep learning curve is an understatement (it's purely a vertical line for me). Thanks for your input.

Visit the FAQ forum to learn. It helped me when I started.
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,49.0.html

edit: i actually did trial/error on a local test server....

[steveoc]

I investigated Centre, Focus, Moodle, Schooltool and a few others in my quest for the right solution. To me, the only one with a one-size-fits-all potential, is Joomla! There seems to be billions of components available for Joomla, and if one can assemble the perfect storm - one would really have something! Unfortunately, learning the in's and out's via trial and error is not much fun.  To say that there is a steep learning curve is an understatement (it's purely a vertical line for me). Thanks for your input.

There is no one size fits all solution--Not Joomla, not Moodle, not Centre, not SchoolTool. Each time you add an extension or component, you add a complication and security risk. You add another thing to keep track of for updates and security problems. I prefer to compartmentalize my risks by taking separate software and keeping them separate. To give Joomla the functionality of Moodle and keep track of the interaction and security of all the components and extensions in trying to do so is a nightmare. Trying to get Moodle to do what Joomla does is equally difficult.

As an educator, I have become quite familiar with the inner workings of Moodle. The complexity and integration of some of the core components is mind-boggling. The workshop, glossary, wiki, lesson, and quiz components working in conjunction with the gradebook are stunning! The workshop allows a teacher to include peer grading based upon a rubric in which students actually grade samples of pieces of work and allows the weighting of certain peer's grading based upon the accuracy of the scoring of sample pieces. This is the tip of the iceberg in terms of the depth of this module. The glossary can find every instance of a particular word in a course--no matter which activity or component--and make it a link to the definition. Moodle has been developed from a pedagogical standpoint from the ground up. As good as it is, it is not adequate, in my mind, as a SIS (although I think it may come close in a year or so), nor does it have the ability to put together so brilliant a front end and general website as Joomla.

Student Informations--grades, health issues, personal information, attendance better have IRON-CLAD security! Think of the consequences if this information is breached! If I put that out there, I want a team of experts who are on every aspect of security and data integrity! The complexity of good gradebook software alone, let alone SIS, is staggering. Some teachers use 0-100, some use ABC, some find the sum of all the scores and create cut offs, some throw out high and/or low scores, etc, etc. Some make agreements with individual students to weigh things differently based upon extenuating circumstances. Heck, I rely on a rubric that goes from 0-28 and the letter grade cut offs do not do not follow the percentage equivalent. In any case, if you are going to, as a web developer, integrate sensitive student information into Joomla, I'd recommend a serious talk with your lawyer and insurance company! (At least a teacher doing this in my state as a school employee is indemnified) Identity theft is one thing, but a child getting hurt because of compromised information...

Don't get me wrong--I LOVE Joomla--I REALLY do! I use Joomla more than any open source web application. But I know that as great as it is, there are limitations. As elegant as it is to have a one size fits all solution is, there is none. I'd like nothing more than to find one myself.

I don't want to end this discussion--I'm exploring many of the same issues myself. I want to integrate and meet all of the needs of a school as best as possible and as elegantly as possible. I think we need to keep into perspective, though, what Joomla with its myriad add-ons can and cannot do at this point! I'm always looking for a new way to make Joomla work better for my school!

Steve

[tncare45]

Visit the FAQ forum to learn.  It helped me when I started.
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/board,49.0.html

edit: i actually did trial/error on a local test server....

Thanks for the link. Somehow I missed the depth of the FAQ's. I must of been distracted after my first visit there.

[tncare45]

There is no one size fits all solution--Not Joomla, not Moodle, not Centre, not SchoolTool.

I agree. I stated

one-size-fits-all potential

I also appreciate your perspective as a passionate educator. And you are certainly correct about having an ironclad lockdown on personal information. I think a third party would be required (in my case). I realize that was the subject of this thread but, I've moved on past the subject. I am not a developer nor educator, but I am still excited about the potential Joomla! can give me as a designer. For a few weeks now, I've been tinkering with CB, YaNC (newsletter), Gallery2 and others.